94. “Clarify clarified” in Getting Things Done® (GTD) – Vital Learning podcast

Transcript

Automatically transcribed and lightly edited. Timestamps omitted for readability.

Morten: Hi and welcome to another episode of the Getting Things Done podcast from Vital Learning. I am Morten Røvik and I'm here as always with my good friend and colleague Lars Rothschild Henriksen. Privet, Lars.

Lars: Privet, Morten. Good to see you as always, and good to be with our listeners and viewers out there. We always start off with a quick reminder with the purpose of this podcast, which is to help you learn GTD or become even better GTDers. So we hope that today's episode supports you in that. If you are new to GTD, we recommend you go back and listen to episodes 1 through 6 to get an introduction to the basics of GTD. Today's episode number is number 94 of the podcast, and today's episode is cryptically titled entitled Clarify Clarified. But before we go there, we quickly wanted to mention that a quick favor that we wanted to ask of you listeners. We are slowly approaching our episode number 100. This is obviously a big milestone for us, and we wanted to make a special episode of it. And for this, we thought we might ask for some of your help. So we'd really like to hear from you. If you can, you know, send us a quick audio snippet or a small video with you, you know, just saying whatever you'd like to say. Thanks for the podcast. Congratulations on the 100th episode. Thanks for podcast number X. It really helped me to do Y. Whatever it might be, we'll put them all together. We'll see how we can stitch that together and have some fun in, in episode 100. So if you could send us that, that would be really awesome. You have some time now. Go and think about what you might want to say. Send us that email and you know where to send it, podcast@visalearning.com.

Morten: Indeed. Grab your phone and make an audio or video recording and send it to us. It's, it will be awesome. Thank you in advance.

Lars: Yeah.

Morten: We have awesome listeners.

Lars: We're really looking forward to that. The nicest, nicest people.

Morten: And the nicest people are GTDers. So, okay.

Lars: Exactly. So with that being said, back to today's topic, which is a really nice nerdy deep dive. I think it is.

Morten: Get your suspender nerdy nerd suspenders on because we are going down the rabbit hole here. So, and what spurred this was a listener question from Gregory B. Let's call him that. I don't know if he has given us the rights to tell his full name, but Gregory B. Had a, had a, yeah, he had a follow-up email to us from another email he sent to us. And what does he write us?

Lars: Yeah, he had some, just some really nice reflections that we wanted to, to pick up again. And I'll dive straight into the email that he, he sent us. The topic was a small change in wording with a profound impact, which I think describes it fairly pretty, pretty well. He says, dear Lars Morten, here are 6 thoughts that relate to my difficulties described in my email from earlier this year, where we talked about it in episode 90 about having over 250 next actions. So he sent us his thoughts separately and was happy with the feedback that we came up with, among other things, that he reviewed his higher horizons, for example, and did some more alignment with that, which really helped. But in this email, he says he looked into the wording used across, over time for GTD. And he says, in the second edition of Getting Things Done, a central question of the main flowchart is, is it actionable? I took that to mean, can you take action on this? Then subsequently, he says, I see that in Crucial Learning course for GTD, which they call GTD version 3, this has been replaced with, is there an action that needs to be taken? The idea that an action needs to be taken is fairly different from Can you take action on this? Then he says, I viewed actionable as a word similar to usable, doable, drinkable, copyrightable. Can it be used? Can it be done? Can it be drank? Can it be copyrighted? And similarly, he saw a post that I made on LinkedIn where I said something that was translated by LinkedIn to be, is this something that I need to do something about? Then he says, I think I recall, but I could be wrong, that David said, is this something you're committed to move on in some old recording of GTD Live. And committed is much closer to I need to do instead of that I can do. And last bullet on that one is I guess I would predict that normally there are a moderate number of things that need to be done, but vastly more things that can be done. My GTD system was closer to containing all the next actions that I could do instead of all the things that I needed to do. And that's how I ended up with 200 to 300 next actions. So lastly, he says, it reminds me of a quote from a British TV show. Yes, Prime Minister, there's, there's a lot of things that people want you to do and lots of things you should do and any number of things you can do, but very few things you have to do. After all, it's up to you. You're the boss. And he sends a link that we can include in the show notes. He says, wraps up by saying, I hope you find this food for thought. With my deepest respect, With my deepest respect for the important and helpful work you are doing, Gregory. Thanks so much, Gregory.

Morten: Thank you, Gregory. And what he's touching upon is that it is the one thing that I always tell all my clients and all my coaching— sorry, training clients when we are in a training situation. The things that you will have the most difficulties is the clarify step. And to just to go back a little historically, like you said, he then gave the questions and the different wordings that have been used. But I just want to, for people to understand that Getting Things Done is still in development, is still refinements that is done to the wording of the methodology. Like when I got on board, it was called process. The clarify step was not clarify, it was process. And that is more mechanical, but clarify is a better word. I think processing is like something you.

Lars: Do in a factory. Organize, review, do, right? That was the old 5 steps. Yeah.

Morten: And, and the, I do, do enjoy the clarify better because it tells you more exactly what you need to do. You take something that's not clear and you clarify it to become clearer and actionable. And when you know if it is actionable or not, then you will know enough to make a decision if you will say yes to this and allow it into your system. And in the pre-show, I told Lars that at some point, I don't remember, it's a few years back, I had a discussion with David Allen regarding this, and I said that because in Norwegian I would tell people the best way of doing this is to ask yourself the question, two questions, uh, "Kann" or "Skål", which means "can" and "am I committing to do something about it?" "Skål", yeah, "am I committing to do this?" And that is helpful because it helps you to make a decision. Yes, I can do something about this, but should I really, should I? And to answer that question, as Gregory also wrote in another email, is about the higher horizons. Those are very instrumental in deciding. Wouldn't you agree, Lars?

Lars: Oh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And we spoke about that in episode 90, I think, was where we, where we picked up the, picked up the question. And so yeah, the wording is, is really important and I just I just, you know, love the walkthrough that he did with the different versions and what it looks like today. One last thing that he also noted in his email was that there was a wording change in do, delegate, defer it in the second edition became do now, delegate, and do soon in GTD version 3. And do soon, he prefers much more than defer it because defer can sound like the someday maybe part. And I certainly recognize that.

Morten: Procrastination, that's some of my My training clients has pointed out to me that that's, that's procrastination, Morten. And I said, no, it's not. But yes, let's, let's discuss this.

Lars: I understand why they think that. Exactly. And yeah. In Danish, we also ended up using a word that sounds, I think if you were to translate it back, it does sound like postpone, which really, you know, gives you the idea that you're just pushing things in front of you and not, not moving on any of them. So I certainly agree as well that the do soon is just more clear. Decision made.

Morten: And that has an added benefit that if you are thinking about it as due soon, it should be on your action, next actions lists. And if it's not due soon, it's maybe due later, then it's either on hold, something on hold, or it is something on someday maybe.

Lars: Now, one of the things that, one of the, one of the things that I also like to underline when I talk to people about the clarify flow, especially when they come across it for the first time, is that it might give them the wrong impression of the depth of the series of questions. Because when they first come across GTD and they start to build their system, they'll have captured a lot of things. And, you know, basically everything that shows up on their list is something that they need to take action on, especially when we do a speech and we'll do a 4-minute mind sweep, and all the stuff that shows up there is basically something that they need to do something about. So they'll have a tendency to really think that everything is something that they need to take action on. So I always try to underline to people that, well, that may initially be the case, and you might have a tendency to then keep that momentum going. I think that may be a sort of a challenge for some people, that they will just put everything on their list because that's how they started off with GTD, and then their list will grow too long, and then GTD won't help them in the end, or at least not as much as we'd like them to be helped by GTD. So the, is it actionable question, if we go by the original question, then really takes on a different form. And, you know, should I take action on this, all things considered? So all the things going on, all the things that I've already committed to, you know, that might change your decision. Same as we spoke about last time with having a more clear picture of the higher horizon, that also, horizons, that also impacts the decision on whether something is actionable or not. So it's, there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of nuance in that question. So that's part of the reason why I also really appreciated the deep dive that Gregory went into with all the different variants of the question.

Morten: Yeah. You are touching upon something that's, when you start out with GTD, you tend to capture a lot or over time start capturing a lot because you understand, oh, I can think again. It's, you know, it's a fresh breeze blowing over my synapses and I can, I feel free and I can think again. And then you feel like I have to capture everything. And then you have a lot of things to clarify, of course, but then you clarify it into your system, good or worse clarification. But then your system is suddenly bogged down with a lot of things you might want to do, should maybe do. Someday, but is it due soon? Are you going to do something about this soon? And that might be— and it is good mental hygiene not to dive too deep into this as well, I think. I just want to pause for 2 seconds now and take a little step back because one of the things that we've been talking about, and I will never stop talking about, is that this is the thing that people struggle the most with. And if you want to you're really good at getting things done, then try and get really good at clarifying. And it is fairly simple. Let's just walk you through the processes. You capture something, anything that has your attention that you might want to do something about, that you will want to do something about, or that you have a worry on. So just capture anything that has your attention, write it down, and then at some point We would recommend every 24 hours in the weekdays, you sit down with you, you block out some time where you can be focused and slow down your processor so that you can make good decisions for the future you. Because that's what it's all about. And then what you do is to ask yourself this question, to pick up one thing from the top of your list and move yourself down one and one and ask yourself, One, is this actionable? And if it is, yes, then you have to ask yourself, am I really committed to do something about this? And at this point in time, you should also think about, why am I on the planet? Is this in alignment with my values, my principles, and the purpose of why I'm here? Is this moving me in that direction or not? And if it is not let go of it like an overheated potato or something. Just drop it, delete it. But if you're not in very much touch with your horizons of focus, then maybe you can then consider it as a someday maybe. But remember, everything you put in your lists are going to bog you down. And your list will either attract you or repel you. If they repel you, you're doing something wrong, and most likely it's because either you clarified, uh, not very good, or you put too many things on them. So, but then, okay, so you decided you want to do something about this. Then use a verb, describe it as doing look like. So next action says, how does doing look like? And then describe when you finish doing that with a verb and ask yourself, is this finished with this one next action or do I need more? Then you have to define your desired outcome. And desired outcome is how does done look like? What's my, what's my target? What's my, my finishing line? How does that look? Anything to add to that, Lars?

Lars: No, that sounds, sounds familiar.

Morten: Yeah, sounds like the methodology, doesn't it? But And it may seem to be simple and easy, but it is very hard. Over time, it will be, you will not feel like clarifying and you feel like, I don't have time for this. And if your brain tells you that, don't listen to that part. Listen to the frontal cortex that tells you what I'm telling you now. Slow your processor down because what you want the least to do right when you're doing your clarification is exactly that. You want to move, you want to have action, you want to have dopamine. I want to tick something off my list. But don't listen to that part. That's amygdala, the Neanderthal part of you, which wants just instant gratification. Don't listen to that part, but listen to the frontal cortex, who talks very somberly. You know, it's good for you. So, so slow down your processor and, and, and ask yourself, is it actionable? And am I going to do something about this? And if Yes. What exactly do you want to do about this to get started? And what's your desired outcome? Does that make sense, Lars? Anything you would like to add?

Lars: Absolutely. Absolutely. Now I'm just reminded as you, as you walk through that, the questions and the reflections on those questions, I was preparing earlier this week. So we are recording this before the summer camp is taking place in Denmark. And I was revisiting the Exactly. The question is from the Clarify flow as it looks today and how we teach it in the Crucial Learning version of the seminar. And it has been simplified. And then as you, as you, you know, share your experience in how this Clarify step can be a challenge to use properly and maintain to help you use Getting Things Done, it's certainly one of the complex processes. That's where you need the smart version of yourself to make good decisions. And so the simplification in the new version, when we introduce people to the methodology, first of all, the first question, what is it, is actually not there. So I'm assuming it's sort of implicit in the decision-making of is there an action that needs to be taken. So that is also a difference. The delegation has moved before the 2-minute rule. So instead of you doing 2-minute actions that you maybe shouldn't be doing, this is actually a question that that pops up earlier in the process as opposed to what we would have shown you previously. And then the Do Soon as opposed to Defer, as we've already spoken about. And the last one that I noted down was the projects question is not here. So projects are certainly still part of GTD and an important part of the process. But just, I think, to make it simpler and more easy for people to get started, this is the presentation of how to clarify things now. So it's been really interesting to see how people can pick this up. And again, my gut feeling without having enough data to say how people pick up GTD following the new version of the seminar, it feels good. I think it's a good and easier approach for people to help them clarify all the stuff that shows up in their lives.

Morten: Yes, I do also think so. I like this, the new version, a lot. It's easier to get started with getting things done. With the new Course material. I still, I'm just maybe me being nostalgic, but to the point of what is it? It's people, this is what I think is maybe being the missing point is that people don't understand exactly what they have in front of them. And instead of them diving into understanding what it is, if it is a complex something that might make problems for your future, you will then procrastinate it by just pushing it into your system without proper clarification. I think that is not a good tactic. So just to understand what is this really and what does it mean to me? And that is another question I ask my coaching clients. So what is this and what does it mean to me? It is a good good clarification, because then you have to, well, somebody asked me to become the, you know, the football coach. And of course, I feel honored for us, they asked me this. But what does it mean to me? Well, it means that I have to consider if I'm going to do that or not. But when I think about it, I understand that I'm flattered, but I don't have time. So that's what it means to me. So it's actionable, yes. What is the next action here that I can do? It is I will respond no to them and say thank you, but no thanks. If I don't take the time to do that, I think, you know, to understand what it really is, what does it mean to me, it's jumping some of the questions. So you might want to add those to your questions for clarification. And I don't know, Lars, if you agree with me, what we found, In the olden days, we had— In the olden days, when we started learning or teaching Getting Things Done, we had in the seminars, we had some videos with an animated character called Rosa. And it was a point doing there that Rosa had to be creating what we called, she must be the Robo-Rosa. So, the robot who is her, who clarified and organized. Things. And it is more or less a robotic, it can be robot, how would you say, roboticized? Is that even a word? But to mechanize it at least so that it becomes, it's, you know, that when you learn to do anything, you take the step out of your comfort zone trying to learn something new and the And the best way of doing that is trying to mechanize it so it can become a habit that can become a routine. And what I am asking all my coaching clients to do, and I would suggest that you, our listener and watcher of this episode, viewer of this episode, I would suggest that you do, is that talk it out loud, if you're alone, that is. You might not want to do that in front of your colleagues. So what is this? What does it mean to me? Is this actionable? And am I going to actually going to do something about it seriously? And then if you ask those questions, it will help you decide and then make good clarification of your clarify things.

Lars: Yeah, no, but I completely agree. And I think also the what is it question, part of the value for me was also to help me slow down.

Morten: Yeah.

Lars: You know, slowing down is just, you know, necessary. And people typically experience this when they try to clarify too often, clarify too many times during the day. And it's really hard to slow down when you're just doing and doing and doing. So for me, the what is it question also was a helpful reminder to to slow down. And again, like, like you touched on earlier, if you don't slow down and clarify properly, you will just have to do it again. So, you know, that'll be a part of your work during the week. It'll be part of the weekly review, wherever it comes up.

Morten: Yeah.

Lars: Is that you need to then sit down and renegotiate all the stuff that you already thought through and didn't think through properly.

Morten: So regurgitation. I think it's called in English. But it is, it is, it is. David Allen is always, when, if you ask him about being lazy, he says that's a good thing. And he will probably say that I'm the laziest person I know. And I would agree with him, but I'm trying to be the laziest person I know. That I don't want to overthink and rethink things that I can make a decision on. I'm not saying that this is easy, but it is very beneficial for you if you slow down your processor. It's saying that you need to slow down to speed up, which is, by the way, David Allen quotes, you have to slow down to speed up. And that is actually what is happening, is that you can slow down your mental processor enough so that you can think this through and make a good decision instead of just dragging something unclear into your system, and then you have to pay. You have to pay later. But the whole being is geared, and that's the problem. Our beings are geared, and we've been teaching ourselves since we were small, action is good. If I can tick something off my list, I'll be a happy person. I will be the person who goes, "Yoo-hoo!" at the end of the day. I will make, "Yoo-hoo! I made something." But I don't know what I made. I don't know if that's the most important things I can do something about. So to be the person who says, I did meaningful progress on the most important things in my life today, and then you have to slow down your processor.

Lars: So yeah, put that, print that quote and put it over the door of your office. So when you leave, you can just, you know, look at that as you walk through and see if that you can check that box today.

Morten: Yeah. And it is, you know, that's, it is, I'm a firm believer in affirmations. So Write it down somewhere. You know, I want to slow down my processor when I make decisions. So clarify, slow down. And, and it is, there are some tricks. I have tried this myself with some positive result because I'm higher associative. That's a problem when, or it's a challenge, I think you can call it. It's not a problem. It's a challenge that you have to overcome when you when you want to be good at getting things done.

Lars: But also if you have small new projects.

Morten: Correct. So, but when I am, as a high associative, it is not in my nature to do sequential work. And this is highly sequential work. So if you feel that this is difficult for you, hey, welcome to the club. It's like this for all of us. I'm not saying that Not to belittle your problems or your challenges with this. I'm just saying that if I can do it, you can do it. And one of the things that I've been using to get me into the clarification process, getting me into the mode of clarification or clarifying, that is to count down from 10 to 0. And why does that work? I don't know exactly, but the theory says that that if you count down from 10 to 0, you have to— you are summoning your frontal cortex because this is where you have your strategic thinker. And you are telling that strategic thinker that I need you now. So 10, 9, 8, and then just saying, okay, now I start. That has helped me sometimes. And I don't know exactly why, but if you have if you try this and it works for you, write us at podcast@vitallearning.dk and tell us if it worked for you, if you try it out. So podcast@vitallearning.dk. Because whatever tricks we have up our sleeve, we want to give to you, help you succeed. So that's why I'm telling you this.

Lars: Yeah. And that really, you know, brings us back to what we've spoken about in previous episodes as well, that, you know, all of these little tips and tricks, whatever works for you. We spoke about music earlier, ADHD. Diagnoses and how different tips and tricks can be helpful. We spoke about the wording today. It's been a nerdy couple of episodes, but again, these small tweaks and changes, they really just have a big impact when we hit the right spot. So play around with it and see what helps you out.

Morten: And I'm sorry for those who are really fresh with Getting Things Done is that this has been one of the maybe nerdiest episodes we've had. So if you feel that I didn't get anything from this, then I suggest that you go from episode 2 to 6, which is the 5 steps of getting things done, which is number 3 is clarify. So if you want to have the distilled version of this without a lot of nerdy thinking, that's the place to go.

Lars: Now you have the context of when we say, is it actionable? It could also be something else, you know, in the newer version, is there an action that needs to be taken, for example. The last item that I wanted to add as well was that in the new seminar, we also, you know, there are a number of skills that we focus on as we go through each of the steps and each of the skills that we have. And one of the skills that is included in one of the the final modules is saying no. So again, I think this also just speaks to the fact that it's so easy for many of us to say yes. And likely almost everyone listening to this, like to say yes. And it's easy to overwhelm your system with saying yes too many times. So it's a specific skill to actually train as part of the new seminar and coming back to the Crucial Conversations and the foundations that and knowledge that they have from those methodologies is, you know, has spilled over into the GTD seminar at a small level. And it's just a really important skill to also have to be able to say no. And again, that shows up again as part of the clarify step and whether it's actionable. You know, maybe not all things considered. I am, you know, I have this I want to really contribute to the team. I want to get my tasks done. I know what I have committed to doing already. I know the quality of the work that I need to deliver on these tasks and all those things considered, I'm unable to say yes to this one. So saying no with integrity is really also a skill that you might benefit from exploring further when it comes to clarifying and saying no to things.

Morten: Indeed. And one of the things I'm reminded of now is that that this saying, this, you might want to write this down as well if you wanted to remember this, if you listen to this, is that if you say yes to something, you are saying no to something else. Make sure you say yes to the right things.

Lars: Exactly.

Morten: And that is a correct statement. And that is if you hold it up together with the that there is always more to do than there is time. For the most people in this world, this is that listening to this podcast is probably because you found that out, or are about to find that out. So to be appropriately engaged with your world and life, make sure that you say no to the right things so you can say yes to the right things.

Lars: Things.

Morten: So, uh, are we ex— have we exhausted this topic? Do you have any golden nuggets?

Lars: No, I just, you know, again, just, just, just wanted to thank you, thank Gregory once again for the reflections here and, uh, providing the basis for a whole podcast episode with his, his reflections, which were really good and again, uh, thought-provoking. And just hope I hope this was helpful for people out there listening, that they, you know, keep this in mind because again, this overwhelming your system is just not beneficial for anyone. So really being very clear and strategic about how you use this question, use the wording that makes the most sense for you. But really, you know, be aware of this. Hopefully that'll, that will be helpful for someone out there listening.

Morten: But remember to slow down to speed up. That's probably the the core of it all, whatever word to use. So, well, I think we are at the end. And Lars, will you take us out as normal?

Lars: Yes. And we do that by reminding you to head on over to vitallearning.eu, have a look around all of the different offerings that we have now, Getting Things Done, but all of the Crucial Conversations, Mastering Dialogue, Crucial Conversations for Accountability, Crucial Influencer now. As well, The Power of Habit, and of course, the different offerings when it comes to Getting Things Done, speeches, coaches, coaching, and seminars. All of that good stuff is there for all of the Nordic countries and Estonia. If you are outside the Nordics, head on over to cruciallearning.com to find your local partners.

Morten: Indeed. And I think that leads me to say some words about subscribe and like and everything like this.

Lars: Smash it. Smash that like button.

Morten: Yes. Hit really hard. No, no, but we appreciate everyone who in Spotify, if you're listening there, go and give us a rating. Everyone in Apple Music, sorry, Apple Podcasts, you can give us a rating. Audible as well. Google Podcasts player, I think also have a rating. I don't, I'm I haven't been in there, but if you're in YouTube looking at this, please do the same. Subscribe and like. If you subscribe to either on the video or the audio, you will get it when it's ready. And that helps us spread the word, because the more who subscribes, then the higher we rank. The higher we rank, the better visibility we have for other people finding us. So With those words, I would like to say thank you for listening, and until next time, stay safe and stay productive.

Lars: Bye-bye!

Morten: Which is, yeah, because as we talked with, or we discussed before regarding, sorry, Gregory. No, I gave away his name. I will make a clap and I will cut this.