89. Reference Systems In Getting Things Done

Transcript

Automatically transcribed and lightly edited. Timestamps omitted for readability.

Morten: Hi and welcome to another episode of the Getting Things Done podcast from Vital Learning. I am Morten Røvik, and I am here as always with my good friend and colleague Lars Rothschild Henriksen. Privet, Lars.

Lars: Privet, Mr. Ravik. Good to see you as always, and good to be with our listeners out there. We always start off by reminding you of the purpose of this podcast, which is to help you learn GTD or become even better GTDers. So we hope that today's episode supports you in that. If you are new to GTD, we always recommend you go back and listen to episodes 1 through 6 to get an introduction to the basics of GTD, the 5 steps. Today's episode number is 89, and today's episode is about reference systems.

Morten: Yes, indeed. We've received a listener question or a comment/question from some person you would like to read and tell us the name of, maybe.

Lars: The name you were looking for is Hauke. We received an email, I think actually yesterday as of this recording. So the email read, dear Lars, dear Morten, I want to thank you very much for your great work with the podcast. Even with only the first 4 4 months down with the GTD system. Your podcast helped a lot to tweak it here and there and making it better step by step. Without this, I would probably have drowned in work and things to remember. I'm really looking forward to all the yet unheard episodes and the episodes to come. Happy to hear that. Is there an episode dedicated to the characteristics of a good system for reference material? For example, for the moment, I could not find anything about this in detail, at least in my experience. A lot of work and good ideas is wasted if material is just stored somewhere or in a more or less efficient system. Maybe you could elaborate this topic a bit in an upcoming episode if there isn't already one existing, or do you have any information where to look for some advice on this topic? Thank you very much. Best regards from Germany, from Hauke.

Morten: First, Hauke, thank you for writing to us, and it's an interesting question. And I was looking through the backlog before we started or before we got ready for starting making a recording and I could not find any episode dedicated to that. So this is a good opportunity to visit this topic. I'm sure a lot of people have this. We have throughout our 89 episodes touched upon reference material before, but we never made a dedicated episode. So this is for you, Hauke, and for all the others who is reference system curious. How do we How do we do it? And how does, you know, what does the Getting Things Done methodology say? So I don't know, should we just try and start with what qualifies as a reference system or reference material? You know, system alludes to that there is something you would like to put in there. So what is this reference material? And what is it not?

Lars: Yes, yeah, so, so just coming back, um, as I was looking through the, the log as well, um, obviously we've touched on this a number of times, uh, but never really dedicated a whole episode to it. So, so I thought we might do it now, uh, and of course there will be multiple ways to, to geek this out depending on, on your needs, but, but just to serve as an overall, um, refresher or yeah, just an overview of the, uh, the reference approach in getting things done. But the one that I mentioned back to João when he, when the email was number 46, where we talk more about the difference in approaches and how we approach digital reference differently. So, but, but yeah, good that we could, um, could dedicate a whole episode to this. Um, yeah, so stuff will show up in your life. That's the first step in GTD, capturing things. Second step is to clarify. As you clarify things, there'll be 6 different buckets where things can end up. So when something is non-actionable, you can trash it, you can incubate it, you can reference it for later. So these are non-actionable items that we want to be able to retrieve again at some later stage. So that is really the, the simplest way I would describe it. I don't know if you would add anything to that.

Morten: No, no, it's something you would like to find after. This is the best, you know, qualification is no action, it's not actionable, and it is just for something you might want to retrieve at a later point. And I think that we can then also dive into just quickly what is not reference material. So that is anything that's actionable is not reference material. I don't know if you've done this, but when I've started my career as a GGDer, if there is such a thing as a career as a GGDer. Well, we made it our career by— Well, yes, we made it our career to teach this. But one of the things I remember very clearly really is that I had a reference system back in the day that was Evernote. The, what did they call that again? Do you remember then the tagline they had, like the all-in-one bucket something? Do you remember the name that I called?

Lars: Yeah, I don't remember the tagline.

Morten: No, but you're right, there was everything, everything buckets. He came back to me now. So, and that, that it became bucket of everything. And one of the things I've, I also tried and to use, I started using OmniFocus. I've been using that for years, for years. And then Evernote and OmniFocus, when you learn GTD, when I learned GTD, it was a big mess. It was actionable items in the Evernote part and the non-actionable things in OmniFocus. It was a big mess. So one of the things that you need to understand, I don't know if you ever had a mess like that, Lars, but— Absolutely. I've seen your before system, so I know. I've seen that. But the possibility ability to just make sure that you are not mixing up reference material with actionable things is what I would suggest that you start with. And then after you've done that, how would you qualify anything that is, you know, valuable reference? What would you call that? Would you take anything, like I said, everything bucket, or would you make some, some, what would be the main qualifier for you, Lars?

Lars: I think, you know, we've spoken about this before, that we, as of the start of this year, started to teach a new version of the GTD seminar. And one of the things that I noted in that was also that when we talk about reference, the recommendation, at least when you start off with GTD, is that to not try to save anything that you can perhaps, or likely search and find yourself later. Because I think a lot of the overwhelmed reference systems that I have come across, at least over the years, have been where we tend to store everything. And of course, you never know, you know, there's, let's say I need some information, I need a manual for the lawnmower, I can probably find that. I don't know for sure that, you know, the company might delete it from their website at some point. But that kind of decision-making is relevant for me to include when I consider whether I want to reference something or not.

Morten: Yeah. And I think that what I would just add to that is that, you know, I'm sure people will remember I've said this before, but, you know, my son taught me the name, you know, the word seriously. And I used the word bullshit filter because I I tend, before I understood what I was doing, I tend to collect everything, you know, like anything that was remotely interesting, I would like to reference at some later point in life. And that made a big mess. And it was, you know, my reference system grew too big. And just before you archive something, ask yourself, is this archivable or do I do I need to archive this for future reference? And if not, don't. Yeah. So, yeah, because it is like with emails is that the more you have of them in your, you know, in your archive or your inbox, it's the more difficult it is to find the one you're looking for. So just clear house. I think it is a good idea.

Lars: By the way, you have to let your son know that this seriously question has also progressed into the Danish GTD community. I've heard from a few GTDers that actually apply this now in Denmark. As well. So yeah, that was kind of fun.

Morten: I'll let him know. I'll let him know. Good. Funny. Yes. The next thing we've— I've made a note of here is that we need to, you know, go back and just the bird's eye view of this is we have physical and digital reference systems and reference material. So I think we— how about we dive into the physical first? So how do you— what would a typical physical reference material be for you and how do you handle it?

Lars: Yeah, so the most common one I think is drawing from drawings from my boys. That seems to be the most common thing. That will show up in my— I know that feeling. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so I'll need to have a place to store those. Some of them are hanging on the wall here next to me. Some of them are filed for reference in the reference system. Not all of them make it there, I should say, because they're quite productive when it comes to drawings. So there is that filter. Yeah, in some cases it'll be, you know, just simple receipts, things that show up in that, or letters that show up that I need to to store. It could be information from, you know, let's say a car repair, for example. So that'll go into my physical reference system. Got some— I got a very delayed Christmas card. I don't know what happened to the Danish postal service, but about 2 weeks ago now, early April, I got a Christmas card from one of the Danish GTDers. Really appreciate those. There are a few GTDers that send me Christmas cards, and I really appreciate them. So I'll want to hang on to them. Because they really mean a lot to me. So they'll go in the reference system as well. So, so things, things like that. And if you were to look in my physical reference system today, a lot of it will be trainer guides as well. So different guides for different seminars or different webinars that we have. They're all printed and hanging there and waiting for me to grab them.

Morten: Yeah. And, and I think I have, I have the more or less the same idea and then how it works for me as well. But I have what I have that is what I call valuable is my— when you have a signed contract, for instance, that is typical reference material that I need to like the office rental space contract here and other physical things that has some value. But I also take, one of the things I take, you know, I save is, well, I've done it for years and I've kind of given up because you can find PDF, but I think I inherited this from my father is that all the manuals you got from anything you bought that had a manual, I had an archive specifically just for this. And that's saved my bacon throughout the years, but because, and alphabetically stored, so if I have like the LG monitor, I will find it on L. But I've given up on that because it's just a Google search away now.

Lars: Yeah, same for me.

Morten: Yeah, so that is, yeah, that's lost its relevance. But if something, you know, the world, the internet dies, then I will be in big trouble. But if the internet dies, that might be the last, the least of my troubles if my monitor doesn't work.

Lars: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. No, but I switched as well. Just, you know, I got a new coffee machine a few months back and just threw it out. And when I needed to now do the cleaning and cleansing thing that the machine required, then I just found a YouTube video to walk me through it.

Morten: Yeah. And some of the newer gadgets I bought, they have actually, you know, there's an app and in the app when you set it up, it's a video in the app that tells you what to do, and then you can just go back to that if you want to set it up again. That, that is convenient. Yeah, but it was a few kilos of manuals back in the day.

Lars: It really must have been.

Morten: It was, it was. So I don't know if you feel— and but how do you, how do you, um, how would you, um, archive it physically? Do you have hanging folders? Do you have, you know, manila folders? Do you have a cabinet?

Lars: Hanging Hanging folders in a cabinet. I bought one from IKEA. And when I— it was called Erik. And I would always mention this to coaching clients. I have an Erik. But they stopped selling it sometime last year, I think. They stopped selling it. So they have something else now and it has a lock on it and it's probably fine. But the one that I have, they don't have anymore. So I'm glad that I've got the one from here at the office and I bought the same one for home as well. So I have the same system in each place, a number of hanging file folders ready for the Dymo label to be printed and put into, and then just put in the cabinet there. I really appreciate it also that, you know, it's so straightforward and I don't really have a lot. I think I have one drawer at home and two drawers here at the office, and very few new things are now added to it. I think more of it's really simplified over the years. But especially at home, it's been really helpful also to have a place for passports and travel documents or currency for the different countries or wedding certificates, birth certificates. You know, we have these naming stickers. I don't know if you probably have them in Norway as well and all around the world, these stickers with the kids' names on them and the phone number that we put inside their clothes. So, so when they bring them, you know, with them to school or kindergarten, they know whose clothes it is. So we have those in there. I've used them a number of times. And just recently now, we were on vacation for Easter and I knew I at some point bought some luggage tags that were really, you know, rugged. And so I went over there and I think, maybe I don't know where I put them. Maybe I put them under luggage tags. I went over there and found them. Gotten some new suitcases, so I just had them there. Some kind of old Kickstarter thing that I bought a while back, and now they have big yellow tags that says mine, not yours. Um, so to find them. Yeah, exactly. So, so I have that, the same one at home. I don't know, do you have different systems or is it the same?

Morten: Well, I am in the office here. I have well, I have a threefold system. One is for, as you said, all the trainer guides and everything that's related to being a trainer or a coach, anything that is in— what do you call that? The magazine holder, plastic that you can put magazines inside because it's an A4, it fits there. And that's in the cabinet beside me here. So for easy retrieval.. But I also have— I will show one of these racks. For those of you who are on camera now, you can see this on YouTube. It is one of the David Allen.

Lars: Company— Yeah, I was just gonna say, I recognize that from the videos with David. Yeah, exactly.

Morten: Yeah, and it is something I bought many years ago, and that's for my, what I call, active project support. And it is also— I also have action support material easily retrievable, so I can— it's, it's, it's very handy. It's within reach of my hand, so I can get, get to what I need to get to without getting up. And then I have behind me here, I have boxes of cardboard boxes, a little nicer ones, I date them by the year. And then I archive in January. I go through and see if something is not active anymore in my active overview and then put them there and archive them there alphabetically. So that's my reference, physical reference system for materials I'll need to take care of and not forget. Should we then move on to digital? Because that's a little more convoluted, might be. A lot of people are now very digital, which is a lot of pros but a lot of cons as well. I don't know if— can you— I'm going to throw you a curveball. Give me some cons for digital reference.

Lars: Material. Yeah, no, I just wanted to add that, you know, you, you mentioned that you did this clean out in, in in January. And I just want to highlight that as well since we're doing this episode on reference material. That's a really, really good habit. I have that as well. Once a year, just run through that reference system and see what's in there. Clean out what doesn't have to be there.

Morten: If you don't, it rottens. It rottens if you.

Lars: Don'T. And especially, just for me, cleaning out, of course, and I have some receipts that I don't need to have in there anymore because the warranty is now passed. But also just to see what's in there and see, just to be reminded, ah, I have that. Ah, that's cool. And, you know, because I'll forget what I have in there if I don't use it regularly. So it's a good tip to do that on a yearly basis. Now, so challenges when it comes to digital systems, there can be many. Where should we start? Saving things in too many places. It's so easy to create new folders. I think For example, when it comes to email, that's probably where I see it most frequently, especially in seminars when we do a 2-day version with the implementation workshop. People will open up their Outlook and they'll have, you know, so many folders to go through. So every time they receive an email that they want to save for later, they might not even need to save it, but they'll do it because they know they have a folder somewhere. So they'll scroll up and down and try to find that folder. And it's, oh, it's, oh, I, you know, It was probably, you know, helpful at some point when the search functionality wasn't good, but really, you know, people seem to spend so much time doing this. I had one a few years back, one from one of the Danish banks. I think I might have mentioned this before. He got a call when they migrated from one email client to another that they could not migrate his client or his content because he had over 1,000 folders for his emails. So the new system couldn't handle that many. So, yeah, I think that would be the one that I would primarily highlight. I don't know, what would you.

Morten: Highlight? What I would highlight is the fact that it is very easy for things to really get lost. And one of the keys that I would like to, or the two keys as I see them, to retrieve your files is to create a system that's intuitive with structure. So which folders do you have? What do you name them? Named and, you know, how do you handle that? And secondly, how do you name your files? Because I think the latter is super important. So, and I know that we are, we are not seeing eye to eye on that. We have had a prior discussion, um, probably we should just— that was episode 46. So long time ago. I can remember you were disagreeing with me sometime in the past, but you 32 episodes or something.

Lars: Yeah.

Morten: Oh, 58. Yeah. I don't.

Lars: Something.

Morten: Yeah. So, but how would you go about, like, you know, what I've done for file folders is I'm starting with what I call sphere, you know, which sphere am I in now? So it could be a sphere, it could be one of the companies I'm involved with. And those are spheres, but it's also a sphere that I'm a personal private person that I call private. So it would be Vital Learning and then the other companies and then private. That's where I start to just make the separation. Do you do the same, Lars?

Lars: Yeah, I do separate them. But it's just, yeah, for me, when it comes to reference, I think when it comes to digital reference, there'll be, I think, 3 different types overall, at least with some, some for, well, well, some, some of it will be notes that I'm making. So I'll be in, you know, I had a few client meetings earlier today talking about trainer certifications, seminars, and also a speech. So when I do my digital notes, that'll be the first criteria, I think, as to where I would, where I would put it and how I would, you know, organize it. Another would be just, you know, the files. So the different file systems that I have. And the last key one for me would be email. So those three together with physical items, those are the four sort of categories for what I need to typically reference, at least for me.

Morten: So certainly in those— Do you use OneNote or some some program.

Lars: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So, so when it comes to these, these notes, I use an app called Notes. Very suitable. So I'll use Apple Notes. Yeah, exactly. See, they, they thought about that when they, when they named it. So, so I'll typically make my, my notes there. It's the transition that I've made earlier this year. So not too many things in there, in there yet. My original notes system was OneNote. So I would have everything in there. That really goes back to my days of using OneNote as my GCD system as well. So that's been in there for 10 years, I think. And I like it. I think it's fine, works for me. And that's where you would find the distribution that you just talked about or categorization where I have personal Lars and I have business Lars in there. Not too many levels, but at least those two. Split into actual reference stuff, and you would also find my checklists in there.

Morten: Okay.

Lars: Yeah.

Morten: What do you use for your system? I use different things, as you do. You know, some things work best, but it is files in the folder structure at Google Drive would be my main for files, but I also have And for me, it's more like the way I differentiate this is I use, you know, distance as my main decision maker for where I put things. So if I need something in my face, easily accessible, that maybe I'm working on or using, I'm going to use actively in the near future, it will be in Notes like you. And most of my checklist is also in Notes, Apple Notes. Okay. But for instance, my weekly review checklist is in there. So, and my packing checklists and other checklists. And, but then I use for things that are finished that I just need to retrieve at some point, that is, could be a collection of notes, documents, files of any type that I need to retrieve, links. I use DevonThink as the database for that, and that works really well for me because I can then, you know, you can put, you can do this in notes as well, but I don't And it is all about feelings. It's like I'm not attracted to notes in that way. It gets easily too complicated and I need a cleaner structure. And I think that Devinthink gives that to me. And so I put it in— what is more, when I finished, when I'm like— I have in Devinthink, just to give you an idea what goes in there, is it could Coaching client notes, anything that has to do with coaching clients would live in DevonThink. And you will need physical access to my computer to get that, so it's secure, it's not synced anywhere. I'm not syncing. I wanted to try syncing through Dropbox, but I stopped doing that. But so, for instance, when we do a GTD queue, the result of the GTD queue, like this could be a screen dump, I put in there. If we then work with the Kairos Cognition for a client, that also goes in there. All my notes from my Remarkable when we have finished our coaching will also go in there. I will then export it as a PDF and drag it into that database, and then I would archive the folder for that client when we are finished. So I can retrieve that information if you want to pick up our talks at a later time. So, and yeah, that's that with my files is my main system.

Lars: So, no, but I can recognize, yeah, I can recognize that, you know, difference between some things, how I want to archive them. And I haven't thought about it directly when it comes to notes, but if you were to look at notes from coaching clients, for example, I will use OneNote for that., because it just offered that flexibility that you then have from, from Devonthink with the ability to add, you know, competency evaluations or any other files that I might want to, to bring up in a coaching session. So I have everything in there. So yeah, that, that makes sense. Even though, of course, the notes would probably support much of it. It just, like you said, it feels different. It's, that's, I want to use this tool for one thing. I want to use this tool for something else. That's really what it comes, comes back to.

Morten: And in that DevonThink database with coaching clients is also what I call my resource library. We have a lot of PDFs and small videos and links that I like to share with my clients that when I need that tool, I know where to find it very easily. And it's just a few clicks away. So if, if I don't know if you've now narrowed down to files and folders, have you, are you there yet?

Lars: Or maybe email. It depends on whether you want to do email first. But, but the email is always, you know, like I said before, email is tricky because people will, and there'll be, you know, of course, very different people that show up in coaching or in seminars. And of course, there won't be any sort of specific rule for how many folders you need or whether you need any at all. As I've mentioned before, I don't have any. It just all goes in the archive. When I have specific emails that I need to reference, for example, I will, you know, let's say I have a waiting for someone where I want to be able to retrieve that email for following up. I'll just include that in my Apple Reminders list so I have the link back to that. But of course, people, some people will need to have separate folders. Could be GDPR perspectives. It could be HR or sensitive data. It could be, you know, that you need to split it by country because for whatever reason in your job that you need to, to see things and, and parked in different places. So people will need as many folders as they need, but try to simplify it. I think that's probably the, that's the, the general advice that I will give to people is, you know, just reflect on the folders that you have, the ones that you don't need anymore. Well, perhaps we can just drag them under archive and then the active ones that you actually use, you have those at hand because it can easily over time get a bit overwhelming, if you.

Morten: Ask me, at least. And I was going to interrupt you, but I didn't. Regarding email is that a lot of people make folders, but they never clean them. So if you think that your folders are important for your well-being, most likely that is an illusion. I think maybe for many people it is. I feel more comfortable if I have a folder for this client or this project. But what I suggest you do is to clean up. If you do once a year a cleanup, that might be a good time to do that. And then just what I do is, for instance, if I have a folder, my folder structure, if I have any, is an action support system. So it's not like a reference system in my folders. It's more like something I need I'm waiting for 10 different people to get back to me on separate emails, not in a thread, and I need to capture them somewhere, I will create a temporary folder for that project as an Action Support. I have a folder called Action Support, and then I give that name of the label under for the folder for that project. And when that project is over, I just drag that folder to Archive and just archive it so it doesn't need to show up anymore. It doesn't have any— if it doesn't have any, if it is just clutter, get rid of it is my recommendation. So cut the clutter there, as we would say. But how would you go about to tell people if you're going to make folders, how How would you name them? For instance, some clients have— how would you attack this? So it's a client that has— you're sorry, a person that has a lot of clients. Should they archive under client, or should they, if they have then under client they have projects for that client, should they then do make separate project folders? Or Lars.

Lars: Help us. Well, that's a, that's a great question, Morten. Thank you. Thank you very much for that. No, it really— or kerbals. Yes. Yes. No. Yeah. No, it's, you know, when, when we come across this, or at least when I come across it, when we talk about the same goes for the list, list of next actions, which, which lists do you need? Well, before we can tell you what lists you need, we need to know what the content is that we actually need to put on those lists. Right. So the same thing goes for emails. Which emails do you have and how do we need to group them? So that would be one approach. How detailed you need to go comes back to how you use it and how, yeah, that comes back to how you would then retrieve it again. How would you naturally go about finding that email again? And let's say you were in, you know, HR, you work with 5 different business areas. Well, you might want to group them by that because if that's how you navigate and find those emails back, then that might make sense for you to organize it in that way. So it really comes back, for me at least, comes back to the question question of, well, how would I see you finding that again? How would you want to navigate to that email if you even navigate to it? Because that's, you know, the question from my end. I search things. So that's why I don't need to structure them very much because that's how I would approach it. But that's not necessarily the right way.

Morten: For you to do it. No. And I do agree with you. And I found that most people will not need or does not need folders or labels or whatever you want to call them. They are called labels in Gmail. But you don't need them unless you feel that they give you some structure you cannot get any other way. One of the things I.

Lars: Would ask.

Morten: You know, what I would suggest to you is that you make a project archive folder. So a folder for projects you're finished with. And if you use folders, the folder structure, to focus on creating folders for the active projects, and when that project is finished, archive it. Don't wait. I am thinking that if you are not archiving your emails, you will create distractions for yourself. You will see things in your email that you don't need to see. So just when a project is over, archive it. And I do, as you, Lars, suggest to people that they should use the search more often to find things. And in most email clients and in most email services, both Outlook— sorry, Outlook and Office 365 and Google Mail or Gmail has the same functionality. You can create search folders.. So you can create a folder that creates, you know, that is a search. So if I have, I could create that if that was a need for me. So I could have anything from Lars that has the word podcasts in the subject field should be showing me. And between January this year and until forever. So, so that is a way to do that, to find your things when you need to find them. You just have to create the structure that works for you.

Lars: Any, any comments, Lars? No, exactly, completely agree. What really works for you is what.

Morten: It comes back to. Okay, should we move on to files, digital files and structure? That is where we are.

Lars: Not in agreement. No, I think just you have the more structured approach. And I think if I remember correctly, and yeah, we've spoken about this a number of times. I think when it comes down to it, it's not really that different. I just name it. I set up a new— I had to reset my two-factor authentication for SAP here today.. So I went in there, I got my new recovery codes, I saved that file. The file is named with the, the year, the month, and what I would search for, Zapier recovery codes. And that's saved. So, and I think you just do that, you know, very specifically for all files. I will name them what I expect in that moment to search for. And in some cases, in this case, you know, that might have new recovery codes for you from now because I got a new phone or whatever. So I'll maybe go back, update the old one to be called old, or just delete it, and then label the, the new one. So, um, but I, I don't have the strict naming convention that, that you mentioned, but I think, you know, some of it I will still do just, just ad hoc. But, but you have a more strict.

Morten: Uh, strict naming convention, right? Yes, yes, I do. Um, the way that I do this is that I have— and there's many ways to do this, but what I've done is, because I don't trust me, I don't trust me to remember my own scheme, that is my file naming scheme. So what I've done is that I've created a TextExpander snippet that helps me categorize that email and put it where I want it. Or not put it where I want it, but when I've done what I'm going to tell you now, I can basically I don't have to care about where I file it because I will always find it. So the way that I do this is that I do it by— I have the date like you have, 2023, the month, and the day when I filed it or received it. And then it will be what, what kind of document is it? Is it a contract? Is it a screen dump? Is it a photo? Is it a— what is it? And Regarding what is the document regarding, so it could be like, let's say there's a lease, then that would be lease apartment, and then the address for that apartment, and then from, to, or to whom. That will be the name of the person either that sent me this file or I'm sending it to. And then what I call the state. So, is the document a draft or the final version or maybe already signed? So, just to have that. And that state has saved me many times. So, you don't have to make the.

Lars: Underscore 1, 2, 3, 4, you know.

Morten: It'S— Final version, final, final, final version. Yeah, exactly. So, I just, you can go there. But to be, and I use this this final, you know, the naming convention comes up in a pop-up where you just select from, you know, dropdowns and just make a few notes about who it was from and what is it about, and then save it. And then I can actually drag it anywhere because if I remember, well, it was 2023, it was about lease, and I will find it. I don't even, you know, and if it was a contract, I will then search for contract and who and then a few seconds after, that's milliseconds after I'm, I've found it.

Lars: So does that make sense to you now that you, yeah, absolutely. But it's interesting now that I reflect on it that, you know, for emails I will archive and I will search and, you know, in some cases when I need files for whatever reason, I will search it. And in some cases I will navigate by the folder structure that I actually do have. Especially when it comes to, to shared drives because I don't necessarily know what the naming conventions that, that other people use. So, But yeah, I will differ in that in some cases, whether I search or whether I actually navigate the structure.

Morten: That I have. Yeah. And I'm coming across, you know, I think that the folder structure has its mission. This is my personal opinion, is have a mission when you have to share that structure with someone else. So someone who is not familiar with your naming convention or has not been involved in that project or that thing that you're talking about. So we do have shared drives that we both have access to, Lars, that we, you know, in the Vital Learning. And, and so, so the way that this— we are trying to do that there is to, to look at areas of focus as the way to, to, for instance, like you, if you're a trainer, that will be a folder for your trainer. If it's a country-specific folder, and then the that is only pertinent to that country, it will be in that country folder. If it is marketing and everything that's general in marketing for all the countries would be in that marketing folder. And then you will dig it down from there. What kind of medium are we using? Is it video? Is it, you know, etc.? And it is not perfect, but it is a work in progress.. And as David would say, speed trumps perfection any day. So it's, but, but I think that what you, what, what do you think, Lawrence, my idea that the folders are for others more than for me?

Lars: Does that make sense to you? Hmm. Yeah, I guess it depends on how you navigate it, because if I were to set it up. Like I said, some cases I will search, some cases I will navigate. So I don't know necessarily that it would be for someone else, but you know, in any case, there should be an owner in, in who actually sets the structure. And I remember this back from my IT consultancy days. I remember when we had big projects, so we did payroll systems, for example, for big clients. And this would be, you know, there would be some, some standard steps in, in all of those projects. So we would have our own version of a project management methodology, and with with that also came a specific folder structure that was set up in SharePoint. And I clearly remember that having to navigate that. I thought it was so cumbersome because there were so many— somebody else made that. Exactly. Because there were so many, you know, different phases in the projects and each, you know, there was the right folder to put everything. There was so much. And of course, to be able to reuse it, to be able to hand it over to support afterwards, we really had to follow that structure. Certainly made sense, but as a user, I was really struggling with navigating and finding the right place and placing the right documents. But, you know, we were so many people on those big projects that there.

Morten: Simply was no other way. And that is also why I think, well, if you have access to a file folder structure and you can search those files, and if you are good at file naming conventions, if you're using, you know,— if not all people do that, the people who are the main contributors to that file folder structure should use the same naming convention to make people find things easily. I think that that is key. But it is not easy. There's no way easy. But if you follow the things that you try to think through as good as you can, what do I need to see and how will I find it in the future? If you are mindful for that, you will try and create something. And I will be, I think, forever in search of the perfect file system and file naming schemes, but I'm not sure I will ever get there. And we have another layer we could add into that mix, which is Michael in in Denmark, he uses the tags as well, and he is a big proponent of that. And I've, you know, him and I have gone butted heads a couple of times about this because I don't understand why I would use that.

Lars: But hey, whatever works for you. And there will be, you know, I'm sure there are some hardcore GTDers out there that say, what about this, what about this? And yeah, for those people that need it, um, it's It's out there.

Morten: I'm sure they will find it. You know you need it. If settled custom is a word that kind of goes, oh, makes you, I know what that is and I'm using it, then good for you. But it's a little bit for the rest of us who are not there. Yeah, I don't know. Do you feel that we have something.

Lars: We should have covered now, Lars? No, I think we, at least we covered what I was hoping that we would. That we have, you know, a nice clean clear episode about reference systems. So just overall what it is, the different types of things that normal— not normal— that most people commonly need to reference somewhere. We kind of walk through how we would place those in different systems, what you might use, use whatever works for you, talked about naming convention. I think we pretty much covered it all. So hopefully this will be helpful for those out there curious about, you know.

Morten: The approach from a GTD perspective on reference And please note there, GTDers, that Lars and I are implementing our understanding of, you know, the reference systems. And there is no perfect version. Like back in the day when David wrote the book, it was A to Z folder structure in Manila folders, which is back in that day, that was the thing to do. They are not there anymore. They are mainly digital. So how do we handle that? How do we create our mandala folders so we can find them again easily? So, and, and toss away anything you don't need. Be hard. That makes it a lot easier to find it after. So maybe with those words, we can.

Lars: I can ask you, can you take us out, Lars? Well, I can partially take us out, at least with a quick reminder to head on over to wiserlearning.eu. Have a look around all of the different offerings that we have now, both related to Getting Things Done, but also Crucial Conversations and the different offerings that we have today. You'll find links to each of the country websites there and more information about the different methodologies there. Outside the Nordics, head on over to cruciallearning.com to find your local partners. We also normally wrap up with a quick reminder about the summer camp, GTD Summer Camp 2023, June 17th to 18th. We had a few more people sign up. So we sold out with the original early bird tickets earlier this year. We found a few more seats. So still, let me know, send me an email at Lars@VisaLearning.dk if you want to get on that waiting list. We don't know how many seats we will be able to find, but send me an email, I'll put you on this. I'll create a folder for you. I will create— I promise I will create an email folder.

Morten: I'll put them in there.

Lars: Lars@VisaLearning.dk.

Morten: DK. This is the time of the podcast where I will ask you nicely, please subscribe and like our podcast. I've had a little reflection today that some, some of you are subscribers and some of you are snackers. We would like some of your snackers to become subscribers. So please continue snack, but also subscribe if you'd like. And a 5-star review is always appreciated. Rate it. And we are having a very high rating on our podcast. We are super happy for that. So thank you. Thank you for all of you who are rating us positively. If you're not happy, send us an.

Lars: Email and you can tell us what.

Morten: We need to do better. Reach us at morten.roedig@adviceonlearning.no. Correct. Do that. And I will talk to what Lars is doing wrong. So, okay.

Lars: Now, Lars, will you take a out.

Morten: I think I already did.

Lars: You did.

Morten: Did you do everything? The new approach. Oh, the new approach. Shorter, better. Okay, then I will just say my usual words. And we had a little conversation in the pre-show today, but we are being amateurish and that's part of the charm. And that is, I don't know if it's charming, but that's who we are. See, you're getting us without filter here, guys. So, well, thank you so much for listening to us, and, um, until next time, stay safe and stay productive. Bye-bye.