Episode 112 of the Getting Things Done® podcast. Listen above, or read the full transcript below.
Transcript
Automatically transcribed and lightly edited. Timestamps omitted for readability.
Morten: Hi and welcome to another episode of the Getting Things Done podcast from Vital Learning. I am Morten Røvik, and with me as always, I have my good friend and colleague Lars Rothschild Henriksen.
Lars: Lars, Morten, good to see you as always, and it's always good to be with everyone out there. We always start off with a quick reminder of the purpose of the podcast, which is to help you learn GTD or become even better GTDers. We hope that today's episode supports you in that. If you're new to GTD, we always recommend you go back and listen to the audio versions of episodes 1 through 6 to get an introduction to the basics of GTD, the 5 steps. Today's episode number is number 112, and today's episode is about a sustainable GTD system.
Morten: It is. We have received a listener question, which we decided we will try and address. And I suggest that you just start reading that email we got. We translated it into English. It was from, if I'm not mistaken, Kim.
Lars: Yes. So this was actually a follow-up question, I guess, subsequently from a previous listener questions episode. I could try to read it in Norwegian, but I would probably not. That wouldn't be beneficial for anyone out there, not the Danish listeners, not the Norwegian listeners, and of course everyone else in the world. So we'll try in English instead. He says, I have a backlog that is very large. That is a lot of clutter in drawers and cabinets. I moved in in 2014 and I still haven't unpacked. I have relatively good routines for keeping digital inboxes up to date, but when it comes to paper, it piles up. After just a trip to town or a conference, I have a bag of papers that never gets emptied. This bag sometimes ends up in— with other bags in a larger bag or in a box. This box eventually gets put in the attic or basement depending on available space. Most likely each of these bags contains papers and things that would be relatively quick to make decisions about. But I procrastinate and procrastinate. And then what always happens is something more important comes up. Suddenly I can't find time to prioritize sitting down with a box full of bags and papers. It could take a very long time and I don't have much time. So a term popped up that I think fits in this context. My system, if you can call it a system, is not sustainable. The way I handle or fail to handle things that come up in my life is not sustainable. If I continue like this, I'll end up as a participant in a hoarding program on TV. The way I see it, GTD is a way to achieve a sustainable life, a life that can face waves and rough seas without being— without the boat being so full that it will take on water immediately. So it's not exactly a question, but more of a suggestion for a topic. Is sustainability something you think about and talk about when you hold courses? It seems like everyone is talking about sustainability these days. Well, that's all for today. Have a great day and thanks for a great podcast.
Morten: And do we have empathy for you, Kim? No, it is— I'm going to elaborate for that a couple of seconds just because it's this feeling that he is conveying in this email is something I can very well relate to myself. That is me before GTD. This is this person. So, and sustainability, well, as a concept, I haven't thought about it as a sustainable, this is the sustainability of my GTD system, but it is that. And he points to the big problem here is the backlog. So any initial comments, Lars, for this? Do you have something?
Lars: Yeah, no, first off, I really like the way that he sort of described it as using GTD to achieve a sustainable life. I like that, that perspective on things. And I can also recognize it to some extent— well, absolutely before GTD, of course, I can absolutely relate to that. But I also, from a personal perspective, you know, 10 years ago, a bit more than that, we inherited our summer house. And that's, you know, the family summer house that we inherited with all the stuff that was in there. And there was way too many things. And we, we, you know, spent the first maybe 5 years starting to, to clean out and, and, you know, make it the way that we wanted it. But I still, you know, very recently actually started to reflect on, you know, we're keeping a lot of things because they were just always there and we might need it. But we have, you know, um, you know, fancy plates and cups and things like that for if we ever were to have a big party where we needed that. But I don't know if that time will ever come. So that kind of reflection on the organizing aspect and keeping all that stuff, that is something that is close to my mind. And also, we have actually— we're actually working on that right now. Just a quick side note, I think if you call IKEA in our town, they will recognize that there has been an increase in sales of boxes recently. We have found an old label printer and we've really started to, you know, make the big organizational push for organizing all the kids' clothes and the, you know, winter wear and the different sizes that the baby will now go through and all that kind of stuff. So doing a big reorg when it comes to, you know, the organizational stuff in the summer house right now. So again, I can certainly relate to Kim's challenges.
Morten: We joke about this in my little family, my wife and I, that when she walks into IKEA, there's a facial recognition software software that automatically alerts the stock exchanges and the IKEA stock price is automatically rising because of this. So no, but I can, you know, the— and it is when it becomes too much. And if you look at them, I just want to focus on the sustainability part because it is, if you are not If you let things in your life, physical or digital possibilities, or, you know, commitments that you make with people, if you allow them to pile up, when it— because that is what he's describing, he's letting it pile up, and that's not sustainable. It is about having a flow through your system, so, and you will not have backlogs. And I'm also reminded of, we had an episode earlier on with Kalle Waderfseth, one of the trainers in Norway/Germany, who is an avid GTGer, and he used to call himself Chaos Carl, or his friend and neighbor called him that because he was really a chaotic person. He did not have control at all. And I remember vividly first time he told me about the pile of stuff that he had in his, like, it's a small mountain in his living room of unprocessed things that he might need, but he didn't have the mental energy or bandwidth to attack it. So, and what he, of course, did, as everybody should do, is make sure that you start with emptying your head if you have that problem. You know, you have too much to think about. And then when you've done that and just pick up one thing, decide one thing every day. Yeah. So don't make it, you know, it's like if you need to mount a mountain, you have to climb a big mountain to do this. And of course, if you're tired, you will not do that. But if you have to pick up one thing somewhere every day or just open one box and decide with this one box or, or and start small. That would be my first advice to anyone that's in that situation. Yeah.
Lars: And it, you know, that's, you know, David refers to this and that you become numb to these things. And that's certainly the case here. I think that, you know, there are just so many boxes now. So, you know, it just becomes overwhelming, becomes too much. And yeah, the recommendation, just like you said, well, just, you know, figure out a good next action. What's a simple next step? Well, the most recent box, maybe I could run through that or the pick, open the most recent box, find the most recent bag. I can do that one. And just really slice it in a way that makes it simple and doable to go through. It's interesting that it's in the physical space and that digital inboxes are actually doing well. I think for the most part, and obviously that's what we see in the seminars mostly, is that people show up with 1,000 emails in their inbox or 5,000 or 50,000 or however many they show up with in seminars. And the starting point there would then be to, you know, all right, let's start with the top one. How do we go through that and go through the next one, organize, clarify and organize, and really go through them? One recommendation that I share when we go through that, because on average, I would say in my seminars, about one-third of the participants will typically leave the seminar with an empty inbox. That's my sort of rough average, I would say, over time. So for the remaining part, to really sort of establish that habit of working from inbox zero, what I'll typically recommend is to have a to-be-clarified folder. So take the remaining emails that we did not get to go through after we've removed all the, the old backlog and already archived that, create a folder called to-be-clarified. Take all the emails, put it in there, because then you get used to sort of going forward. You have that inbox zero mindset. You can go in and clear it out on a regular basis. And then whenever you find the time for it, whenever you prioritize to to do so, you go into the to-be-clarified folder and just grab, you know, 5, 10 emails and let them find their way into your system as well. And perhaps there's sort of a physical or real-life analogy to this in how he could perhaps approach this and start to, you know, take these bites through the big backlog.
Morten: And it is one of the things that I've I don't know how Kim ticks because I don't know him as such. And as a general, I would suggest that we try to find some general rules or advice that we would give someone that is in that situation where you have the big backlog and you want to become more sustainable, making sure that what you have on your system is, or in your system, with air quotes here, gets processed. And to establish a habit is what I would suggest, because instead of just kind of like digging into this and making it an insurmountable mountain, it's probably easier to establish a habit over time and then just do a little every day. And how would you go about, Lars, to establish this as a habit if this was you? I have some suggestions, but I'll let you go first.
Lars: Well, I don't know about the habits part. What I would start off with is to actually try this approach from the email side of things, saying that, all right, going forward, now I work from inbox zero, meaning that I won't be piling up inboxes in Attics anymore. So whenever stuff shows up, this is going to go in my physical inbox. I'm wondering if perhaps Kim doesn't have one. So, put that on your table, put that in there and let it sit there and look at you when you sit in front of the screen and you clear out those inboxes. Perhaps you have a checklist with the different inboxes that you maintain at zero. And at least in my world, I would look through the list and I check them off and, oh yeah, all the digital stuff is done. And then, I would look slightly to the right and there would be my pile looking at me with different papers that would be waiting for me to go through. So, coming back to that, I would say the other thing to note, not about the habits part, but also, you know, as stuff ages, more of it will become trash or reference. And I just want to emphasize this for Kim, if and when he's ready to start dealing with that backlog, it can be overwhelming, feel overwhelming initially. But the experience is from email as well is that when you go through things that are older than 1 month or 2 months or however old, so much of this will be outdated. So it can feel like a lot of work and it is work to go through that, no doubt. I'm not trying to minimize that. But it is usually a smaller task than you might be concerned about. That would be my starting point. What would you say about the habits part?
Morten: No, I just want to follow on that, is that when you procrastinate something and you get started, I'm sure you have done that as well, Lars, as all of us, is that when you get started, it doesn't feel so bad. It's like, why did I feel that this was so insurmountable? Why did I have this negative emotion with this? Because this is not a problem anymore because I got started. And one of the things that I've been trying out myself and with some people in my family, not my wife, another person, I don't know, is to try and make decisions today what you will do tomorrow. So, for example, it could be, let's say that you want to clean out the attic of all the boxes of various papers and stuff. And maybe today is that what you need to do today that you can tick off as done is take one box down from the attic and place it somewhere, you know, where you will see it tomorrow. That will be, you know, okay, I've done that. That's easy. I can go up in the attic and I take one box. I don't have to open it today. I will open it tomorrow. So every second day or every day you will have to take one box and you will every day open one box. And that means that you kind of— or you can make a day in between if that makes you feel better. You have to listen to your inside when you're doing this, because if you are trying to do too much, you know, you're gaping and trying to eat too much at the same time, then maybe that procrastination feeling will come back. But just to take one box down, put it somewhere where you will see it, and then when you come to that box, maybe the next day, you will then open that box and process it to zero. And if you then have established— and this is one of the things that a lot of people, myself included back in the day, procrastinated is because I don't have places for the stuff to go. So for instance, if you— let's say that in that box, I'm going to make up something. Let's say that in that box you have some papers that might be trash. It might be something that needs to be shredded because it has some personal information. So you need to have a trash bin and a shredder and maybe an archive for the physical stuff, or at least some idea where it should go after you processed it. For instance, maybe I need to scan it. Do you have a scanner? Or you want to use your phone? Where does it end up? And just to think about where things should end up, like, so let's say that some clothes that needs to, that's, you know, you want to throw away. Where do I throw that away? Do I give it to some charity, or do I just put it in the trash, or where does it go? And to think about these different things and make sure that you have your, you know, your stations ready for where things should go, it makes it so much easier to go through that stuff. And the same thing goes for if you have a lot of backlog in emails, if you don't know where they go, they stay in the inbox and they, they, the backlog is bigger and bigger. What do you think about this Lars?
Lars: No, that's, that's an excellent, yeah, no, that's an excellent point. And that can really stop people from, from archiving things when they don't have a place to, to be archived. It really is, you know, and this is one of the things where it would be so nice if GTD just had that ready-made solution already. You just got a big box in the, in the mail and you could just set that up and then you had all of the, the location, the storage space, and everything you needed to organize things. And as many of you out there know, that, you know, we don't know what kind of organizational requirements you have before we know what we need to organize. So there's this sort of chicken and egg kind of thing. I typically come across it when we talk about the lists that people have. We have a different approach now in the seminars to highlight what people might need, but people would love to just say, all right, here are the lists that you need, there you go, now you can just play and organize, clarify and organize. But being aware of this and knowing that there is an action for you to make sure you have the places that you need for organizing, that's such a critical step. And perhaps that is the reason. It could also be, obviously there is space for the, if you can capture that much and the boxes are there. So obviously there is the physical space, but perhaps you don't have the shelves or perhaps you don't have the boxes. So yeah, maybe that trip to IKEA is the next action.
Morten: Now we are increasing the stock value of IKEA worldwide.
Lars: Hashtag not sponsored.
Morten: Hashtag not sponsored. But to— I'm just going to go back just one minute to make sure that people understand the value of creating places for stuff to go. So if you are going to— as Kim has a lot of papers in boxes and plastic bags, and then decide I have a trash, it is an archive, and it is a shredder. If you have those three things ready, and then going through a box should be, where does this go? And you have only three places where it can go. It's either a trash, something you should shred, or something you should archive. That should be fairly easy, shouldn't it, Kim? Let's get started now.
Lars: Yeah, it could be. The, the one thing that came to my mind when, when I read through Kim's email was also that I have come across some people over time that will tend to save too much. That will be, there'll be so much information coming in and it might be relevant at some point. So we have never done that. We tend to archive a lot. I, I'm, I'm, I'm guilty when it comes to email, for example. I'm much better at archiving email than deleting email. But especially in both the physical and the digital world, I would say, is that some people will just tend to hang on to things that they will never use. And perhaps we can draw a line back to the seriously question that you like to add to the clarifying flow, because I think one of the recommendations also in the new seminar with UCD is to, you know, save things that you also don't think that you couldn't find online. So are you saving that manual? Do you really need to save that manual? Because perhaps you could just Google it and find a PDF somewhere. And then, you know, those manuals of PDFs are most likely out there, so perhaps you don't need it. Or yeah, there will be different scenarios that show up where we— I've seen a number of times now that people just, you know, overcapture, overorganize, or however we should phrase it from a GTD perspective. And that certainly impacts sustainability.
Morten: Indeed. One of the things that I've been, you know, I was reminded of now, you know, the manuals that you keep is that I have a suggestion. Create a digital note when you buy something. Then in this very particular, easy-to-find note, you, when you buy something, when you have installed it, You have the manual in paper and look at it and look at the number or the naming of the thing you bought and then go online, Google that and try and find a PDF of that and then take the link to that PDF and put it in the notes with the name of the product. Then you have one, then you don't have to— then you can toss or recycle the paper with a good conscience. And it's super easy to find it after. I've started doing that now for things in the home, and I think that is a good idea if you want to toss things that is available online.
Lars: Yeah, certainly. Absolutely agree.
Morten: I'm thinking for the share volume of things that we take. You mentioned that before, and I said we have all sinned, in air quotes, against this. But it is, if you want to have a sustainable system, you must make sure that the inflow equals outflow at some point, or else you will have a backlog. That's the definition of a backlog, or a bottleneck, if you will. One of the things that I've, when I started with getting things done, and it is, I just want to describe the different phases of this. You get a new tool, like I got Evernote, the everything bucket. It was so beautiful. I can collect anything, you know, and I started capturing articles I would like to read one day, and I started to envisioned myself, you know, reading all of these different books. And I'm not saying that book lists are wrong, but I hoarded that because it was so easy to capture. And PDFs I might want to read one day, and I just piled everything in there. And in the beginning, it was very, you know, a tempting exercise to do, and it was a lot of fun, and it felt really good. But at some point, I started feeling bad about that system because it grew. And I know I didn't have a, what would you call that, a habit of going in and cleaning up and making sure that the things that was in my system is still relevant. And that made me more and more feel like this is more like a burden that became my attic. And it was like, it started weighing on my shoulders because when I, on top of this, I had my GTD system inside that mess. So every time I opened Evernote, I saw my GTD system with all the things I've not done something about. It's like, kill me slowly. So my trick to do that was to just declare some kind of bankruptcy in there and just clean out really with a hard hand and ask myself using the bullshit filter question, seriously, am I going to read this ever? Does it have any really some future value for me? And I cleaned it out and I was so relieved after. I don't know, have you ever ever had that emotional or so? Can you recognize what I'm talking about?
Lars: I think, I think most people will recognize, and I think it comes back to the, the need for the system to be flexible also over time, because suddenly you get excited and you start to put too many things on your list and now it becomes overwhelming to choose. So you have to go back and readjust. Right. I recognize that right now I have a, a reading list that I used once and had, oh, I need to read that and I need to read that. I had that exact thing. And now it's just there and I've just, you know, let it sit there because for me it's fine. I've just decided that I'm not going to do anything about it. So that's kind of the bankruptcy thing that you describe. One thing that I was reminded about when you said was that when I started using GCD, I am like anyone else. I had a lot of stuff going on. There was a lot of things that I wanted to put in my system and I started to find those next actions. And there were a lot of repair/building projects that I had captured. So, what was the next action? Well, actually, I didn't have the stuff that I needed. So, all right, on the errands list it went, you know, I had to go get some tools, I had to get some materials, I had to buy some things, order some things online, whatever it was. And I think I had perhaps, you know, 10 projects going on at the same time. Now, suddenly I ordered all those things. So, first of all, it was pretty expensive at that point. But then I got all that stuff. And then it just started to look at me and I was like, there is no way I'm going to be able to, to do all these 10 projects at the same time. So that required some new organizational requirements for all of the support material or support items that I needed for the next actions. And I also needed to park some things, right? Being much more realistic when you had that overview that, yeah, that's, yeah, that was not a good, good way to start. I'll need it at some point, but for now, I'll have to, you know, pocket somewhere until I can actually start doing some of these things.
Morten: Yeah. Yeah. And then, and then you kind of, what you've, what you did, if I interpret you correctly, is that you hoarded the things inside your home products lists and, and, and trying to, you know, eat 10 different dishes at the same time. And that is never very well, which I had, I did a seminar for, for And this is, I said, I can, I can share this for the Norwegian Seafood Council yesterday. And I remember we talked about them, you know, the sustainability of your system is that if you, if you are overloading your active project list, your desired outcomes list becomes full of things you're not doing right now. And then that can lead to overwhelm and you will be disgusted with your list instead of being attracted to it. To them. And then we talked about how you can create that balance. And then just to give that to our audience as well, we touched on this before, you and I, but to put in your, the things that you're not having active this week and maybe next week on a specific list that could be on hold or on pause. I call it on pause, I'm sorry, on hold, next actions, and decide outcomes. And if I, and when I see that, you know, I have overcommitted myself, I'm starting to get a little disgusted by my project lists because it's too much. I'm getting overwhelmed. And then I just drag them down and voilà, problem solved. I feel relieved again. I feel more overview. I feel attracted by my lists again. And I think that is something I would highly recommend you to do if you don't feel that you are, you know, you've overloaded yourself, you're overcommitted yourself. Renegotiate with you and the people around you what's active right now. If you have to pause a project for 2 weeks, I'm sure not many people are going to— well, it could be some extreme circumstance, but nobody's going to die if you do that. Some people might be disappointed and then to feel that they would like you to finish before, but that is mostly in your brain, that emotion. I don't know. Do you feel the same when you're using more or less the same systematic process?
Lars: Absolutely. And I think for the people that when they start off with GTD, that can be sort of, it's not a challenge, but it's something to learn about yourself. As you start to work and keeping GCD in mind and starting to follow the ways of working. Because I will, you know, will frequently come across a question that, you know, people will start to build their lists and, hey, Lars, now I have X number of things on my list. Is that now too many? And that could be for next actions list, that could be for projects list or anything else. And there is just some experience in that, in, you know, have to go through them, look at the complexity, you know, one project is not similar to the next one, one takes up more time than the other one. So how many is the right number is not the place to look. It's an indicator, but it's not the answer. Yeah, exactly. So we need to sort of just learn to run through that list and understand how much can actually get done. And again, that also requires knowledge of your calendar and other things coming up that, you know, how much can actually move forward with coming in the coming 2 weeks, for example, like the timeframe you mentioned. Yeah, it's a good tip. It really, and it can really be helpful. And again, making that renegotiation and pocket and feel good about where it's been parked. Yeah.
Morten: And just one thing I would like to add to this is that, you know, that David Allen in his books talks about the productive experience and the unproductive experience. And I think that it could be also translated to the productive and unproductive emotions, because you will feel physically and emotionally if you're doing GTD correctly. If your system is sustainable and it works, it will give you a feeling of overview and control. You can relax, you are more in the moment. And if you're not any of those things, if you feel, I'm not relaxed, I'm not in the moment, I feel I'm stressed, I don't have the overview, I don't have the control, Then Getting Things Done tells you very, you know, directly what you need to do to get back to that state. And as you know, empty your head, clarify and organize, do an auto-cycle weekly review, and look through everything and get back to that and create that balance with using the on-hold list, for example. You know, you can use someday maybe as well, but for me, it's the on-hold category is is magical because it's something that's active, but not right now. It's going to be done, but not right now. It's a parking place where I can manage my workload, my work-life balance, creating that sustainability. That's also something I would like to— I think the emotions around how do I feel about my getting things done? How do I feel about my work? Do I feel— do I control this week? Do I feel good about what I'm doing? If not, ask yourself, what do I need to do to get back into that or into that for the first time?
Lars: Yeah, completely agree.
Morten: I don't know. We are at half an hour. Do you think we have exhausted this theme, Lars?
Lars: I think just, you know, the way that I looked at the question was to sort of try to address some specifics. Quick actions for Kim to try out. And I think we've done that. I think zooming out a bit and thinking overall on a sustainable GTD system, we sort of touched on that as well. I think, you know, overall, you know, of course you have to capture what's on your mind, but being aware of that and how much you let in is really critical. Whatever really then has to come in, be really good at clarifying and organizing using the filter that you described before and really look out for that organizing part as you're referencing. System coming to be? You need to adjust it. Are your lists becoming too long? Do you need to adjust it using the on hold or whatever we want to call it? That might be some, you know, reflect step activities to look through and see that you actually have the system that require— that you need right now for the things that are going on in your life right now. And of course, the doing part is pretty quickly obvious when you tend to spend more time looking at those lists as opposed to actually, you know, completing some of them that they're just standing there looking at you. And the one thing that I would add as well that I don't think we've touched on yet is, well, perhaps there is a need for you to zoom out even more and look at areas of focus and accountability. Because again, I've mentioned it a couple of times because it's such a fun horizon for me these days, for me and different people that I coach and work with, to look through these and see, so what's generating all this stuff? All the stuff that is coming in, where does it come from? Where do you spend you spend all your time? Where does all the information come from? What is related to? And perhaps do we need to make some adjustments here? Do we need to change the responsibilities that you have? Do you need to be, you know, make a new agreement with yourself saying, that's nice, I wish I could focus on that, but just not right now. I had to pause that area of focus. I don't know, can we have an area of focus on hold? But pausing them for a while and, you know, maybe in 3 months and 6 months, let's see if I can re-engage with that.
Morten: Yeah, you can, of course, renegotiate your commitments personally to an area of focus or responsibility. But I suggest that if there are other people involved in that, do the renegotiations with them or not without them, because maybe they want you to deliver on this. Like, you have 3 sons. And let's say that you— I don't— I only have time for 2. Maybe your wife has something she wants to say about that.
Lars: Perhaps.
Morten: Yes, I'm sure as well. And maybe I don't want to relate to accounting this month. Maybe your accountant would be a little frustrated.
Lars: Maybe.
Morten: Yeah, I'm just saying. But very good question. And I would like to ask Kim and any other listener out there that listen to this episode and find value in this. Please just drop us a quick email or give us a comment on YouTube, on the different YouTube channels. You will find them in the show notes. Drop us an email at podcast@gtdnordic.dk and tell us.
Lars: You can use that one or vitallearning.dk. Oh yeah.
Morten: There you go. Old habits are hard to beat. podcast@vitallearning.dk. Podcast@ytollearning.dk. Thank you. I'll try and memorize.
Lars: I think the old one works as well. So whichever one you prefer, but actually do let us know. It's always fun to hear from you. It's always fun to also get these questions. We have a lot of fun with them in the episode. So be sure to keep them coming.
Morten: Yeah, please do. And I think that if we've helped you and, you know, kind of a rating somewhere would be also good. Just saying, like, subscribe or a like or something. Yeah. I just looked at, we have, I think, close to, well, 75-ish 5-star ratings on Spotify now, which is, I'm super happy. I checked it yesterday and we are, well, before the end of this year, we will pass 500,000 plays. Of our podcast. It's like, what? I'm super excited about that. I'm very easy to please, so, but I'm super happy. So, well, okay. Thank you for listening to our podcast. And now I think Lars will take us out.
Lars: Well, my next action in this case is to remind you about the summer camp coming up. If you've listened to an episode before and made it Altway to the End, you probably heard us talk about before. It is in Denmark. It will be June 15th to 16th, 2024. We have, I think, 6 seats left now. So slowly, slowly approaching the, you know, having all tickets sold out. And it'll be a lot of fun. Getting things done together is the theme this year. We have people from all over the world coming, really excited about it this year. We've sent out the information emails. So for those who've just signed up, information emails are on their way. If you ever thought about coming to Denmark and wanted to spend a great even— even, sorry, great weekend with the nicest people on the planet, then this is the one for you. Hope to see you there. gtdsummercamp.com is the place to go. You can read more about it. You can find the program now. Sign up, of course. Send us an email if you have any questions about this as well. Really, really looking forward to it. I'll be there Morten will be there. It'll be a lot of fun.
Morten: It will be. I'm so stoked about this.
Lars: Morten is excited again.
Morten: Yes. Okay.
Lars: And the other reminder that I share is head on over to visalearning.eu because that is the company website. You'll find your way to all of the different countries in the Nordics Plus, more information about the Getting Things Done seminars, the speeches, the coaching, Crucial Conversations seminars and everything else. So, mycelearning.eu is the starting point there. If you are outside the Nordics, plus, then head on over to cruciallearning.com to find your local partners.
Morten: Indeed. And until next time, stay safe and stay productive. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.
