Episode 106 of the Getting Things Done® podcast. Listen above, or read the full transcript below.
Transcript
Automatically transcribed and lightly edited. Timestamps omitted for readability.
Morten: Hi and welcome to another episode of the Getting Things Done podcast from Vital Learning. I am Morten Ørevik as always, and I'm here as always with my good friend and super duper extra something something friend and colleague Lars. We are, we are, if you don't understand what I'm talking about, go back to, I think this is episode 100, you will understand why I'm doing this silly thing. But.
Lars: Very good, Morten. Good to see you as always, and good to be with our listeners out there. I won't even try to replicate how you, how you greeted me. Instead, I will remind everyone with the purpose of this podcast, which is to help you learn GTD or become even better GTDers. So we hope that today's episode supports you in that. If you're new to GTD, we always recommend you go back and listen to the audio versions of episodes 1 through 6 to get an introduction to the basics of GTD, the 5 steps. Today's episode number is number 106, and the topic of today is another listener questions episode. Listener questions number 15, I think.
Morten: It is, and I think we have 3 questions. But before that, we have 3 questions, but something you would like to mention, I think.
Lars: Well, now you teased it, so it sounds like more than what it really is, but I wanted to give a brief update on the, on the GCD Summer Camp this year, June 15 to 16 in Denmark. We had a meeting last night where we sort of outlined the program and what we expect for this year's summer camp. So if you were curious about what we had planned, we had this tentative schedule that I hope will pan out. The topic this year is getting things done together, which of course lines up very well with the team book coming out now in the first half of 2024. So we'll talk certainly about that techniques and how we can hopefully implement some of those techniques that Ed and David are covering in that upcoming book. We hope that they will both join us virtually as well, and we'll have some sessions with them. We are looking at a really cool presentation from Thais Godinho from Brazil called Compassionate Productivity: Achieving Tasks Together with Balance and Empathy. How cool is that? That sounds really cool. At least I'm really looking forward to that one as well. And yeah, of course, plenty of room to socialize. There'll be the walk and talks with other others from, from around the world, GTDs from around the world. There'll be the systems talks and sharing your systems if you want to, and, and focusing specifically. So how do you collaborate with others with your GTD system? So maintaining the focus on, on getting things done together. So a lot of cool things are hopefully happening. I think it'll be the, the coolest summer camp ever. So gtdsummercamp.com to learn more. Oh yeah, and it's cheap too, by the way. Or at least I just heard from someone who found their way to the summer camp site from the GTD Connect forums who actually commented on how good the value for money is. So obviously you have to travel to Denmark, but I think the value that you would get from a weekend like that as a GTDer, even, you know, seasoned or new to GTD, I'm sure will outweigh that.
Morten: Indeed. And it is, we are doing this for, you know, it's a nonprofit. We don't have, you know, everything we, or the GTD community VLRs in Denmark are getting from this is going back to the community. And you are getting exactly what you're paying for. And we don't make money. We travel on our own companies, dying to do this. And we donate our time to hang out with you guys and to be with you and help you become better. So if you want to come, I would be very happy to have you. And if you are scared of doing that, traveling alone, just get to Copenhagen and we will help you figure out all the rest. That's not a problem. So, excellent. Okey-dokey. Listener questions.
Lars: Question number 1 from Jimmy, who commented on my YouTube channel sometime last year. He said, long-time podcast listener. Here from the UK. Love the show and your English is perfect with some clapping hands emojis. Thank you so much, Jimmy. I was torn on which channel to post on, so lucky you. So as those of you have been watching or listening for some time, both Morten and I will post these episodes on our channels. So there's an opportunity to comment or view these twice or subscribe to both, whatever you prefer. Anyway, he says, I have read GTD and listened to every episode of the podcast, but here's my sticking point, maybe a question for the podcast. When it comes to GTD and emails, in parentheses Outlook, I never see the emails go down. Say I get an email which will take longer than 2 minutes and I will flag it to action tomorrow at say 10:00 AM. This handy flag will now automatically show up in Todoist, which is great to manage my tasks. Where should I move my email to? I do have an action folder in Outlook, which is where it would generally go. Trouble is I will be reminded about the task tomorrow in To-Do, mark it as complete in To-Do, but then go and then I have to archive the email out of the action, which never happens. So I end up with a load of emails that need my brain thinking again. Then he clarifies, I'm on the road 70% of the time. So To-Do is ideal to keep track of key tasks, but I always feel I'm doubling up on my emails. iPhone user and Windows laptop are my tools. Any tips on this topic would be great. Many thanks, Jimmy. PS: Apologies to Morten. I will drop him a comment next time.
Morten: Thank you, Jimmy. I'm looking forward to that. So, no, but to, to, when you read that question, I, I, I wanted to make, you know, they're all, maybe you did that in school, like, I know this answer, I know this answer, which is always good if you know the answer to a question, but The idea is he don't tell us exactly his setup, you know, if he's using this on his Outlook in the desktop or online, but the idea is that you can do both. It will make exactly the same, is that you archive the email and then flag it. Or you archive the email and drag and drop it in, in the web versions of Outlook to, to the My Day sidebar to make, create a task, and then it's already archived, and then you don't have to do something about it later. Problem fixed. Anything to add, Lars?
Lars: That was easy. No, but I think what's, what's really happening is that he is, is I'm wondering if he flags all emails or if he's using the action folder as his place for storing emails that he still needs to do something about that takes longer than 2 minutes. Because it sounds to me like he's flagging all of them. He's attaching a specific time, which we might consider, you know, for some emails that might be the right thing to do, but something that can easily overwhelm your system and give you that sea of red with all of the emails being being overdue. But it sounds more like he's using the action folders as what we will actually call the action support folder, meaning that he would track his next action somewhere, still being that email that was flagged, and then dragging it to the action support folder. And what— because what he describes was always the challenge, right, that you would— some people in the, let's say, in the olden days, some people still do this. They would, you know, an email comes in, takes longer than 2 minutes to respond, go over to their next actions list, write down review PDF and respond to Jens, put that on their next actions list. I need that email because it has the PDF, so I'll put it in the action support folder. So when I wanted to complete that next action, I could then go and find that in the support folder. So that was a, you know, a good approach with the tools available at the time. But the problem always was, at least for the people that I worked with, that cleaning out that support folder I had a coaching client, must be about 2 years ago now, I think, in next month, where we set this up. This was the best approach for her, and we didn't have the opportunity to integrate as we can in many cases today on Outlook. So she would set up that support folder, she would have her next actions list, and then when we spoke 2 months after the coaching, she had, I think, 127 emails in that action support folder. So When we looked through them, they were all responded to. They were all done. There was nothing more for her there. She just completely forgot to clean it out. So, so that often happens.
Morten: Productivity pornography for herself.
Lars: Yeah. Yeah. So, so, but, but, but you already described the solution, right? Flag it and archive, you know, get, get rid of it. Don't leave it in there either. Use the action folder as the place to store it and work from, or archive it and flag it, like you said.
Morten: Yeah, and I reread his question again, and I'm thinking that when he says it takes long, well, the emails go down, I think he's asking the number of email doesn't go down, which means that, you know, his inbox is growing. So to archive it before would help with that, and then you create a flag, and he says action tomorrow at, say, 10 PM. What I'm, you know, we are telling you very clearly, that is, if that is the absolutely most important thing you need to get before 10, after 10 AM tomorrow, okay, and then flag it and put a due date. But if not, maybe something changed until tomorrow, maybe something more important came up, and then you need to move your flag and your reminder. Maybe you are in a meeting at 10 o'clock. Tomorrow, and then suddenly something happened and ping, this reminder comes up and bugs you. So reminders are good for those things that you cannot, you really need to get a reminder of, but if not, don't. Yeah, it will.
Lars: Exactly. And that can sometimes be a symptom of, you know, too many things going on or lists are too long. So we'll put, we'll put reminders on some of the items to sort of make them stand out because I really need to remember this one, right? So it can, can You know, not necessarily, but sometimes that can be a symptom as well of something behind that. There's more to fix.
Morten: Exactly. So, and yeah, the action folder, I think it is, or action support folder, or yeah. If it has an action folder, then the email in itself should be the reminder of the action, but then he hasn't clarified it. It's just a And that's not the best way to do it. I think you need to clarify and organize your emails. And in this manner, it could be then just archive and then clarify and organizing to-do. And do not skip that, because if you do not clarify the email after so that you know exactly what you need to do with it, it's going to be fodder for procrastination. So best practice, go in and clean up your flagged emails and create good next actions for yourself so that your brain can let go of this and don't have to then rethink what was this again next time you see it.
Lars: So I don't know if that helps. Yeah, and just to clarify on that one, you know, perhaps there are a lot of different versions out there of Outlook, it seems, and some IT departments are quicker to pick up newer versions than others. Others. And it really depends also on the organization and security and lots of factors in there. But, but would certainly recommend to keep an eye out for what you describe with the ability to, to drag that new email to the, to the to-do app instead, as opposed to flagging it. Because like you said, if you only flag it, then you have to rethink it again, have to get that, that brain working. If you could drag it to your to-do list and actually write down what the next action is, then you have completed your thinking, you don't have to rethink it. And that really certainly helps.
Morten: Some people, definitely for me, it's the best way is that when you read an email, ask yourself, what is this? What do I need to do about this, if anything? You know, and what's my next action? And then create that reminder in the moment. Just if you read something, and that works best for me, and then park that reminder on the next action list. Some people prefer something I don't think is ideal, but okay, if you enjoy this kind of pain, please do. Is that they have capture in two phases, like they capture emails that arrive in their inbox, that's They don't control that. People send them an email, so it's capture one. And then capture number two is to decide that this email I need to do something about, so I then capture it into my to-do. And then later I will organize and— sorry, clarify and organize them into my system. And, um, yeah, I prefer doing it in one step instead of, you know, because they will be ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, these I need to do something about, and then go back and then clarify them. It's okay. But if you don't clarify them in the moment there, just after you decided which one you need to do something about, and somebody, if somebody distracts you or you distract you or there's a meeting you can't finish, then it's a tendency I see with my coaching clients that it hangs in their system. I don't know. Have you seen that, Lars?
Lars: Yeah, I've certainly seen variants of that. And it can really be a challenge and often adds work. But it can be tricky. I mean, there are some people that I've come across in seminars where they have such a high volume of email that to get them started with GTD, the action approach was the only sort of, for them, realistic solutions. There might be some other discussions that would need to take place in order to adjust the amount of emails coming in and see if we could actually change something about that. But yeah, for some people, I just worked with a coaching client this month who actually, the starting point for us was the the action folder because he had, you know, a very— much of his work was very paper-based. So there was a lot of piles that we focused our time on because that was really the key thing that was distracting him. So to get us started with email, we would start up with the flag or action folder support instead.
Morten: Yeah. Okay. I hope that we have answered your, your question. It's been a long-winded answer, or maybe too, too much nuance for you, but archive, then flag, and then clarify into your system in To Do after that. That probably would be the, the fastest and the short version of this long-winded answer from Lars and I. And Jimmy, please, next time don't forget my channel, okay?
Lars: Question number 2 says, dear Lars, dear Morten, first I want to thank you again for the great work explaining and promoting GCD and putting up great efforts on answering questions and adding new input to the topic. It is a great journey so far with the nearly first 100 episodes, and I'm really looking forward to the following 100. Your podcast has really helped me a lot with setting up my system and keeping it running. Besides that, there is a question on my side I would be interested in your thoughts on. We all know the story that most people interested in GTD are already very organized people. For me, that is an obvious fact, since at first glance it is an attractive system to organize better and easier for people already into organizing and strategizing by their personality. But most of the time, less organized personalities would really benefit from GTD but may be hardly attracted by the same story an organized person is. Do you have any experience that you could, you know, how to tweak the approach to make GTD more appealing for other personality types and easier to get into? Again, thank you very much for great work and the always open ear for the community. Best regards from Germany, from Hauke.
Morten: Yes, thank you, Hauke. And how would you attack this, Lars?
Lars: Well, First, you know, I would probably agree that in general, most of the most organized individuals have an easier— it's easier for them to see obviously how GTD would help. They already have a list and found that, hey, there's a better way to do this. But, you know, the value, if we start to look at that, the value is not in organizing. The value is in what it helps you, which is also what Hal How can you answer that? So he references other types of people, more creative people, right? For a spouse, maybe. I don't know. I'm just reading between the lines. A good friend. But perhaps not limiting ourselves to specific types of people. Maybe take a step back and ask, so why do you actually use TCD? Why would you use it? What value would it bring you? And if it's more of an empty head situation, for example, that's not necessarily an organized person, perhaps even more attractive to more, more creative people than, than the already structured ones. Um, could be more present, um, less stressed, um, working on the right things, more productive. That might lean more to, to the already organized people. But, but really it, it, you know, for me, the question really comes back to what is the value that you're trying to get out of GTD?
Morten: Hmm.
Lars: I don't know. What would you say, Martin?
Morten: No, you know, we've been talking about this for a long time and with a lot of different people, you know, who are attracted to GTD. And I would say that there are a lot of personality types that are attracted to it, but for different reasons. So, but I think that the one common reason that you should be at all interested in Getting Things Done, it gives you freedom. Freedom to focus on what you think is the most important thing to do right now without distraction, without, you know, bad conscience for something you are not doing exactly right now. And for those, you know, we have a lot of very creative types in our both trainers, like we have Kaliwa in Norway and Germany. His nickname from his friend and neighbor was Chaos Carl because he was not at all organized. But when he learned getting things done and got it under control and everything, suddenly he's a lot more freedom and freedom to be creative, freedom to be problem solving in the moment, freedom to just be in the moment, whatever you are doing in that moment. If it is, as David would say, if you want to take a nap, it's great because there's nothing pulling on you so you can fall asleep faster. Or if you're focusing on creating a piece of music or something other creative outlets, it helps you to be in that moment without, oh, I should have filed my taxes. I forgot this year as well. What am I going to do? And then suddenly your brain is inside that mood more than the creative mood. Freedom. Freedom to focus. The tagline for GTD is freedom-focused GTD. It's kind of like, duh, yes, that's what it is. If you would like to have more freedom to focus on what you think is the most important things, then Getting Things Done can help you. And of course, you get a lot of the freedom of the calm of the brain, not much going on there except being in the moment. And the second is the more overview and control of everything you need to get done. Whether you like it or not, there are things you need to get done. So that is the two things I would focus on in addition to the freedom to focus on whatever you want to focus on.
Lars: Yeah. I think it's also, you know, part of this also comes back to the challenge in communicating GTD and the value for others. And it's, you know, hard to take that kind of, I'll show you my list and then I'll say, what do you want out of life? Right. It's a pretty big step, pretty big leap. But I think many GTDers, at least many that I know, I remember this for myself as well, learning GTD, wow, this really helped me. Let me show my colleague and I showed my lists. I say this to all the, you know, the trainers that we train and I think you probably did to me back in the day, Morten, and to other trainers in the Nordic side. Yeah, you got to step out of your, you know, your system and your way of implementing GTD and talk about the process and the way of, you know, what, what are the 5 steps actually do. And it really can be a challenge because it's, it's, it's very abstract when you try to communicate and so much easier to show you, hey, this, this is the list, this is what it looks like. But that sort of, yeah, it really appeals much more, like he says, to the organized people already when you show them some lists that are even better than theirs. And that's easy to pick up. But really, it's a process and it can be a challenge to communicate.
Morten: Yeah. And I think that emotionally there is, you know, I'm trying to, I have a little list. I want to just read that list quickly to our listeners. Let's see if we can find this quickly. Okay, so I'm going to do this on top of my head. Are you finding yourself being stressed every now and then? Do you forget things every now and then, even important things Do you feel overwhelmed at some point? Are you a time optimist? Are you saying yes too often? And do you like lists? If you can tick off one of these, you would benefit from getting things done. So, and that's about it. I'm saying this if you think that one of these are, you know, would enhance your life, like your stress level goes down, you will forget less, more overview, more control, more done at the right time, and a realistic time estimate, and you can say no with a straight face, saying, "No, I can't do that because…" And if you think that is helpful, go for it. So, yeah.
Lars: Yeah. So it really, you know, to sum it up, it really comes back to communicating the value of TTD to what actually would give value to the other person.
Morten: And as Lars says, don't show them, don't show them your lists no matter what you do. Yeah.
Lars: But that's, you know, passionate TTDers, they have, they have the best list, right? They're so excited about it. I remember I was in this cell. Help me with this and this and this. And yeah, no, no, gotta be the process. That's how it works.
Morten: It is. It is. It is always. So.
Lars: Question number 3.
Morten: Yep.
Lars: This is from Joost. He says, hi Morten. Hi Lars. Maybe an idea for a future podcast episode, navigating a midlife crisis slash existential crisis with GCD. This, of course, includes keeping some sort of life running while you find out what's important to you and try to figure out what is you actually think you want from life and work. Thanks from Joost. Nice and easy question, Morten. I'll let you take the first stab at this one.
Morten: Yeah, well, you're closer to a midlife crisis than I am. So, but if I'm going to reminisce about how it was when I was in my midlife crisis, I don't think I actually had a midlife crisis, but I was learning getting things done in that period of time. So I can lend, you know, my two cents into this conversation. No, I'm, as I remember it back then, what was really beneficial for me was to get things under control and, you know, And but of course, when you get something under control, you tend to say, 'Wee, I can do more!' And then suddenly you do too much. And then suddenly you get your success in business, and then suddenly you have too, too much. So, so what I would recommend anyone in that time where you are in the middle of, 'What am I going to do with my life? I'm all getting old. I need to buy a Harley-Davidson.' which I did back in the day, I'm not kidding, then maybe what you need to do in that process, or I suggest you do, is to map your horizons of focus. So the horizons of focus model with the purpose, values, and principles on top, and then wishing for how does it look when I leave my Purpose, values, and principles. And then what's my long-term goals, 20 to— sorry, 12 to 24 months from now. And then my areas of responsibility and accountability. And then my project. And then my next actions and calendar. That's the model from top to bottom. So to know in that time of life what is important to me, why am I here on this planet, And how does it look when I live that life? That's going to help you to navigate through that period more gracefully, I think. And I think it helped me to become more aware of who I am and what I want out of life. How about you, Lars?
Lars: Well, I wouldn't know because there are so many years till that happens to me. Now, I had a BMW until 3 months ago. So, that's my best example of any sort of symptoms of a midlife crisis. No, I don't think I have much more to add than what you said. I think, well, time will tell, right? Maybe there'll be a huge midlife crisis for me in 5 years. Who knows? But maintaining the clear picture of the higher horizon, I think that is what it's all about. And I would say, without having extensive knowledge of what a midlife crisis would look like, I would assume that there is a misalignment with where you are and what you actually want to get out of life. And of course, that comes back to just what you described, the higher horizons. I think, especially for me, the areas of focus and accountability, having that horizon too mapped out, figuring out the standards, and then, you know, figuring out, so where do we actually want to be in, yeah, 12 to 24 months, 3 to 5 years, looking into the future and trying to, to align them. I think that is, that, that is what is needed. And then, yeah, I'd be curious to, to hear perhaps if there was less of a significant midlife crisis for GTDers than others. I don't know if that is the case, but I would imagine so because there would be more, more clarity, at least on the higher horizons. And if there's something that you don't like, well What's the next action? How are we going to fix that? Right.
Morten: I think that the midlife crisis comes from the surprise epiphany that comes to you that I am getting older. Where am I? Am I happy where I am? There is a song that eludes me now, but I will find it and put it in the show notes so we can use that. Which happens on— it is all about how did I get here? And suddenly realization that is this my house? Is this my wife? Is this my car? Is this my kid? Are these my kids? Is this all what life is all about? You know, and then I'll die. Oh, I need to do something. And that That, I think, is the crisis, maybe at least in popular fiction or popular understanding of it. I don't know. And I think that can be avoided if you take the time to do the horizons of focus thinking before you are hitting that landmark of your life, because you have already thought about that. So why am I here? What's my values? What's my principles? And when you get in touch, a lot of people that I do in my coaching where I do my Horizons of Focus, I call it Horizons of Focus analysis, which is just me asking questions, helping the person that are going through the coaching to think about what is important. And there's a model for just birthing that into paper or into a Word document. And when I do that, I feel the the emotions for what is important for them flowing very quickly. And with some honorable, what we call outliers, they're out there. Most people that I've been coaching are going to, are ending up with family is important, my children is important, my near relatives is the most important things around me. And just to get back to those roots during a time of life where you actually can do something about that and prepare yourself for your own old life, if you want, is important. You have to align yourself to your values. If you're not aligning yourself to your values, you're living somebody else's life. And who wants to do that? Figure out where you want to go and go there. And, uh, and, and the framework of getting things done on the horizons of focus model can help you figure that out.
Lars: Yeah. And I think if we focused on the, so he says midlife crisis slash existential crisis. And I think with any crisis, I think you lean, you fall back on your horizons of focus and the higher horizons. Um, I think with the, with the challenges that, that we've seen in the past, uh, 6, 9 months now in the, in the company. I really frequently revisit the horizons of focus for the company and really revisit those and adjust them as needed, but also, you know, keep the inspiration and focus on the goals and what we're trying to achieve. So back to the higher horizons. Hopefully the clarity there is something that helps in these crises, whether it's one or the other.
Morten: Yeah, I think so too. We are probably going to say that this is going to be the shortest episode for a long time, but we are at 30-odd-some minutes. But I think we've ended our listener questions episode. Do you agree?
Lars: I certainly do. Thanks so much to Jimmy. Thanks to Hauke. Thanks to Joost for sending in their questions. Hopefully our responses were helpful. And if you have any questions, be sure to send them to us, podcast@vitallearning.dk. We'll put them in the list and we will, I promise you, we'll get to them because we, at least we always have for the past almost 5 years now of the podcast. We have gotten all of the questions. I think if we missed one, be sure to send me an email or Morten, whoever you prefer to send to. Let us know. I don't think we missed any. So keep them coming. It's a lot of fun to do these episodes and We continue to get really good feedback on these because it sort of reflects challenges that many people face. So this is the, like I said, 15th episode of listener questions. So we've covered quite a few questions over the years.
Morten: We have. And don't go and subscribe to Lars's YouTube channel, subscribe to mine because he's winning. He has way too many subscribers. I have just a few.
Lars: You have the numbers from Norway and the audio downloads. I will take the ones on YouTube. It's because on YouTube, I haven't told you this, but I actually upscale to 4K and it's in 3D on my channel. So be sure to subscribe to my channel. That's why. You didn't know that.
Morten: You're so full of something. I will not use that word. Good, good, good. Okay, um, but do like and subscribe, and if you want to help the podcast, if we help you, um, give us a like, give us a 5-star rating somewhere you're listening to this if you can. It helps the discoverability of the podcast. And, um, yeah, and Loris, you will take us out. That's Morten Normøe, I'm sure you will mention just what I just mentioned. But.
Lars: You covered your part already. I also covered part of my part already, which is gtdsummercamp.com. Won't reiterate that one now. But a quick reminder for you to head on over to vitallearning.eu, find your way to the local country websites, learn more about the different offerings that we have on Learn GTD in a seminar, coaching from Morten Normøe, or one of the other coaches in the region. You'll find everything on that website. If you're outside the Nordics, head on over to cruciallearning.com to find your local partners.
Morten: Indeed. And until next time, please stay safe and stay productive. Bye-bye, all.
Lars: Bye, everyone.
