92. Listener questions #13: How can GTD help with ADHD, alcoholism

Transcript

Automatically transcribed and lightly edited. Timestamps omitted for readability.

Morten: Hi and welcome to another episode of the Getting Things Done podcast from WhiteWall Learning. I am here as always with my good friend and colleague Lars Rothschild Henriksen. Privet Lars!

Lars: And your name is Morten. Terrific. Let me add that for you since you were so kind to introduce me.

Morten: Okay. Now you introduce me. Thank you.

Lars: And good to see you as always. Good to be with everyone out there listening and watching. Thanks for tuning in.

Morten: Yeah, we can call ourselves the unpolished GTD podcast. We make mistakes and we air them. Okay.

Lars: Sorry, that being said, the purpose of this podcast is to be on the podcast, but also to, to help you become better GTDers or learn GTD, depending on where you are in your GTD journey. If this is your first time listening, we normally have a more straightforward introduction. Today was a bit, bit off. But if this is your first time, again, thanks for tuning in. If you're new to GTD, we recommend you go back and listen to episodes 1 through 6 to get an introduction to the basics of Getting Things Done, the 5 steps. Today's episode is number 92 of the podcast, and it's a listener questions episode with some very deep questions.

Morten: Yes, indeed. There is about, we received an email with 2 questions, one regarding ADHD and another about alcohol. So this is going to be the ADHD alcohol episode, maybe, or at least I hope that can be separated in some sort. Do you want to read the question, Lars?

Lars: Yes, let me, let me do that. The email read, hello Lars and Morten, I have enjoyed listening to your podcast a lot. The dynamic between you two creates such a familiar feeling that I always find myself smiling uncontrollably while listening. Happy to hear that. Perhaps that comes back to the unpolished stuff that we, we started talking about. He says, I wanted to ask you about a detail regarding the QCD summer camp as well as suggest some topics for the show. He won't be able to attend, he described, but he's looking out for tickets for next year. So how will he know? Well, send me an email. I'll add you to the list to get notified when we set up next year's event. So that was the first question not to be further discussed, I think. As you said, He had the two questions. I think we'll just dive into the first one and then we'll answer that and then go on to the second one. The first one says, I got into GTD around 3 years ago as a junior software developer, and I felt like I could not keep up because of my ADHD. Having GTD helped me keep my head empty from both personal and work-related things, which was a profound help to my focus and organization in general. I'd love to hear what you talk about your experiences when coaching people with ADHD or where you have seen these two subjects connect out in the wild. I think it would help adjust my practice and hopefully expose other ADHD people to GTD. So I think Morten, you probably have the most experience with this topic.

Morten: Yeah, because I think maybe I have a bit of ADD. ADHD myself, when it comes to think of it. At least, but just to take a step back for people listening, that neither Lars or I have any medical education or experience with anything that we discuss. So when we talk about topics that might be of medical nature, it's you and Lars and I are trying to draw on our experience and share that with you. This is not any medical advice at all. So with that disclaimer said, I think that it might be good for us to take a step back and ask ourselves, what is ADHD? So attention deficit hyper disorder is the abbreviation, ADHD. And what I understand of this is that it is very multifaceted. You are, you know, one person having ADHD HD does not mean that the second person have the exactly same experience. And what I have understood by the people I talked to, I talked to people who said, I have this condition and this is how it works for me. And I have talked to then someone different 3 months after saying, I have this and this is how it looks for me. So this is my thinking that this is, you know, a personal experience as well, is that this is different to the individual. But if you look at— if a general— the AD of ADHD is attention deficit, is that you have problems directing your attention. Your attention is fragmented, it's pulled on at all times. And if that is you, then GDD might help you by helping you to remove the unnecessary distractions And I want to touch also on the— what I understand is that if you want to get a person with, you know, the general idea of people with this condition is that they are, they have attention deficit, but they are also very creative and they work very well under pressure. Actually, they may need some pressure to get their stuff done. At least that's my experience. So that might be a good idea to talk about getting things done, how you can also use GTD as removing things from your brain, but at the same time, you can create pressure for yourself so that you actually get stuff done. If I turn to you, Lars, maybe we should just do a little recap on the capture part of Getting Things Done so that new listeners and old listeners can get a little recap on what is capture. Why do we capture? And how?

Lars: Yeah. Well, all the stuff that shows up, whatever grabs your attention, we wanna, we wanna capture that somewhere on paper. We wanna capture it using a digital recorder of some sort, an application on your phone, whatever it might be, capture it digitally on your lists. Whatever has your attention, we wanna grab that so we can take that through the process of clarifying and organizing it into the system, into the, the appropriate places. And I'm reminded by, I think it was Carl Ivar, who is a trainer and coach in Norway and Germany. He explained it, you know, in a way that he said that he had experienced it as if the TV was on with all the channels at once and you didn't have the remote. So there can certainly be a lot of capture to take place there.

Morten: But now we are giving you at least one remote so you can turn off one of the channels that you can turn off. There's some of the audience.

Lars: Yeah, exactly.

Morten: Okay, so the idea with Capture is that you will, you know, if you have had this head full of things, you know, all these voices, all the channels on all the time, the entire time you're having this chatter going on in your brain, Some of these chatters are just background chatters, part of having ADHD. Then the idea with Getting Things Done is that you can take, at least for those channels you can't just shut off, you can shut them off. For instance, I must buy milk, I need to send Bob that email, or I have to not forget plan the vacation this year. And all this should, would, maybe, worry things that is inside your brain, get them out, write them down. Just basically find somewhere to write them down by paper or by some app. And as Lars said, and then just, just look at them later and decide what you need to do with them. And that would quiet some of the chatter down. And then the second thing that I was reminded of, sorry I mentioned, is the need for crisis. I understand that some people with the condition really need pressure to function at their best. And then the idea could be that you create some pressure by, for instance, you can use your calendar as a tool for creating pressure is that in this 45 minutes' time, I'm going to press 1.5 hours of work on this project. I want to finalize this project and then create that deadline maybe in your calendar because that calendar is more of a commitment than your lists. And then just say that now I will finish this. You know, and I said initially that I might have a little of this myself is that I use that trick. Myself just to— now is focus time for this thing, and I'm not going to be distracted. This is what I'm doing right now. And I think you, you have it, if you're not done it all, all the time, Lars, you have tried that, haven't you?

Lars: Well, I have, you know, things that I certainly block time for in my calendar. I continually have this dialogue with myself or battle, whatever you want to call it, in making sure that I get the right things done at the right time, while at the same time also moving forward on the things that have to get done as opposed to the things that I might want to do in that specific moment. So for me, it's continually a balance in how I want to be presented with the different options that I have on my list. So in some cases, yes, I will certainly use the calendar to make sure that it happens. And in some cases, I'll see if I can in some other way force myself to get the right things done at the right time.

Morten: One of the things that I've been thinking of in this, in the tail of this, is that if you want to create a crisis, you need to tell someone that you are going to finish this. And maybe the stakeholder, the person who wants you to deliver something, just tell, "It will be finished at 12 o'clock today." And then schedule a little too little time so you are on real tight pressure, and then your brain will go into focus mode, that rabbit hole mode where you can really get get stuff done. And I've seen people with, uh, with the condition that, that has the ability to have really sharp focus, and I mean laser-sharp focus. And, um, and that I think is, is, uh, is clue, is that when, if you give yourself the razor-sharp focus, you can get more of the right stuff done. And my last idea for you who have this is that use music. Some, some of you have used music before as a way to put on some headset, play some music. I have a playlist called— from my programming days when I was working with web design company— that I called the Rhythmical Programming. And my list is then played, it's rhythmical, it's dance music. Without, or more or less without any lyrics at all, but music I know well. And I have, I think now it's 50 hours to listen to, and I do it on shuffle so I don't get bored. And it helps me focus. It's like the music can block part of my channels, my chatter in my brain. So if I have put music on, it helps me to focus. I don't know, do you have the same thing, Lars?

Lars: Well, right now I'm just focused on Morten's 50-hour dance music playlist. I really want to see that. I want to listen to that. I use that sometimes. I think where I most recognize it, you know, I'll use it at the office sometimes as well to stay focused. You know, the place could be running for me where I will vary from, you know, podcasts and audiobooks to if I want to speed up like I did yesterday, I'll put on the new Metallica album and then I will run this just slightly faster when I need to stay in that mode. But yeah, go ahead.

Morten: No, I was gonna ask you if you use it as I told you, or that I suggested that you can use it to block out your brain. Does that happen?

Lars: Yeah, I think so.

Morten: Or just for distraction?

Lars: Yeah, I think so. And it's just, you know, it's a mood setting mechanism as well that, you know, I wanna be efficient. I wanna, you know, be ready. I wanna, you know, get some things done. So for me, it might be just a variant of what you're saying. But that's, I think that's mainly how I use it. But it's a good tip. You know, I see it across the— and, you know, just taking a step back, you know, I have worked with a few people diagnosed with ADHD as well. I know multiple GTDers in the Danish GTD community that benefit greatly from GTD. And like you said, music can be a great help. And I think overall the, the best tip that I could give was to explore what works best for you in your ability to maintain focus. So that might be music. Some people really focus much better when there's music on. I think, I don't remember who said it, but someone liked actually this '80s game music. So that might be a variant of what you said with the dance music, but really explore and, you know, see what works for you. And yeah, like I wrote it down, it's it really goes for all of us. You know, it's a, it's a big spectrum. We're all somewhere on that, on that list. And really, we are— play around with what works for you.

Morten: Yeah. And I, I would recommend— or recommend— I would like to ask you, if you are a person who have ADHD— how— why can't I say this? ADHD. It's kind of like stuck in my mouth. But if you have that, thing and you recognize that, or maybe even you have that diagnosis, then, and you have some tips based on getting things done and, or you want to contradict what I'm saying or Lars is saying, please email us because we want to learn more about this. This is very interesting for us because we meet people who have this and we want to be better teachers and coaches and And it helps us to understand you better. So podcast@vitallearning.dk, podcast@vitallearning.dk, please.

Lars: Yeah, that's the one. That's the one. And also, yeah, music is one thing and also, you know, play around with the visualization of the system. And that's, again, we're all on that spectrum somewhere. I've played around with that as well with having different colors and use when I was using to-dos, for example. Using emojis has always been a help. And I still use that in my reminders system now on Apple Reminders. I know you do too, Morten, as well. I have that on for my projects for absolutely no reason that there needs to be, but for my personal projects, they all have an emoji for some reason connected to them. It just makes it more attractive to look at. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I think there was a recommendation from David at some point when it comes to ADHD to have a system on paper. So that might also be something to explore, maybe visualize the projects. I remember Juukka from Finland mentioning how he has worked with different coaching clients where they have, you know, played around with the projects list. It might not have to be a written-down list. It might be a visual list describing what the projects are that they're working on. So, so really explore. And that really goes for all of us. We explore what works best for you. And I think the last thing that I noted was when I reviewed my— I have a small note in my reference system when it comes to GTD and ADHD. And one tip from, from Kal Ivar was, you know, with so many ideas generated, which might be the case when you're diagnosed with ADHD, is to really be aware of that someday-maybe list. Really, you know, be very aware that, you know, with so many ideas showing up, so many things that you might need to deal with, in order to not overwhelm your system, that someday-maybe list likely needs, you know, a big— to be a big part of this overhaul.

Morten: Yes. And one of the things that I would, you know, I have been talking about this before in the podcast, that one of the things that I would seriously recommend you look at is seriously looking at whatever you put in your system. So if you have an idea, it doesn't mean that it has to go to your system at all. You can look at it and when you clarify and say, nah, sounds like a good idea at the time, but now it's not going to clutter my system because people, and this is I think one of the pitfalls of early GTDers is that what you do is that you, I have an idea, let me write it down. I have an idea, let me write it down. And when you get to clarify and organize, instead of taking that step back and ask yourself seriously, am I ever going to do something about this? You know, revoke your, what I call your bullshit filter. If then you will clog your system. And your system will be bloated. Mine was like really bloated. And I looked at it and I go, I am not attracted to you. And then I have to do a rehaul and a revamp of the system, you know, just throw out all the, all the, the, the cruft. Um, what do you think, Lars? Am I onto something here?

Lars: No. And I was just emailing with also someone who has submitted questions previously where we also spoke about this, that you might have a tendency during the week, there are things that show up and you really want to get them started. You start up the things and then the projects list starts to grow. And then as you do your weekly review and perhaps look at your higher horizons, yeah, no, maybe we need to park some things again. So if you can apply that thinking earlier in the process, obviously that'll save you some time.

Morten: Because for a person with ADHD, it is like double punishment because not only are you putting things into your system, it gets bloated and you look at it, but when you do your weekly review, you punish yourself again by seeing all the ideas you will never do something about. So just for the visual view of things is that I've been talking about this a lot, this may create the balance between active projects and inactive projects. It's an important part of getting things done because if you put too much on your shoulders, too many active projects at the same time, you will feel weighed down and you're not making meaningful progress on them. End up being overwhelmed. And overwhelmed is not a part of the getting things done good work by vocabulary. You are not supposed to be that. So if you're overwhelming yourself, you need to do something about it. And just getting it out of your way somewhere where you don't have to see it at all— no, sorry, in the week. But also make sure that whatever you put on your someday maybe, make sure that that is really someday maybe. I've thrown out a lot of stupid things I've put there before. So I'm sure you have as well at some point.

Lars: Yeah, absolutely.

Morten: What did I use for brain when I thought about this? Could be interesting.

Lars: Yeah. And we had a community of practice with all the trainers in the Nordics, plus all of the people connected to Vital Learning. And yeah, that was highlighted as well as one of the, what's your favorite part about GTD right now? And that was one of them, making sure that you have the right amount of project it's on your projects list.

Morten: Yeah, exactly. Should we jump to the next subject?

Lars: Yeah, the last thing I just want to add is that I was reminded that we did this episode, and actually YouTube just suggested it to me when I last logged in. We did an episode way back with where I did a recording with Meg Edwards and Frank Sopper and with different learning challenges. And it's a great episode. It's been— a lot of people have watched it and received a lot of good feedback on that. So we'll see this recording from my summer house. So it'll be very not so business background as we have here. But there's a lot of good content in there. So I'll be sure to link in that in the show notes as well if you want to watch that as well. It's very interesting to hear their experience and take some things.

Morten: Yeah. And, you know, Meg Edwards is a very interesting person. So I'm sure she has a lot of things to say about that. I don't remember if I have actually listened to that. I have to do that.

Lars: You'll find it in the show notes.

Morten: Yes, exactly. So, okay. New topic.

Lars: The other question was, he says, I've been thinking quite a lot about addiction, more specifically alcoholism for the past week. My mother is an alcoholic who has recently fallen off the wagon and is back in rehab. She works incredibly hard on staying sober and we're all with her in the fight as much as we can. However, I can't help but think that GCD could help her for the same reasons as it helped me in topic 1, to clear her head of the mundane things so that she can focus all her energy on fighting her alcoholism. I wonder if this is something you have any experience with, and in that case it would be very interesting to hear. More?

Morten: Okay, do you want to go first, Lars?

Lars: Well, maybe, maybe just start off with just, you know, thank you so much for sharing such a sensitive topic. I think I speak for both of us when I say that we, you know, really appreciate sharing this with us and to pick this up in the podcast. So thanks for the trust in us on that one. It's from a GTD perspective, I think it's a very interesting topic as well. You know, how do we GTD topics such as addiction, both with regards to dealing with the addiction itself and also how a clear mind might help. I think he's spot on by saying that, you know, that clear mind will help get rid of that day-to-day stuff. So you have the ability to perhaps focus on the bigger picture. So I think that's really an important aspect. And, you know, the more experienced you are with GZD, the better this will get. Because, you know, starting with the basics, that's a great thing. But there's really a lot of value in also identifying the higher horizons, the bigger why behind why you're doing all of this, because that's, that's where you find the, the motivation for all of this. So I think if I were to, you know, take the perspective of my own system, a good starting point for me might be my areas of focus to identify on that level that that's where such topics might, might show up. And when I spot something that, that I want to do something about, then that might trigger projects, might trigger next actions on my lists or in my, in my calendar. I also have, you know, some extra checks in my weekly review checklist. So again, this really comes back to expecting that this is a GTDer that does their weekly review on a probably weekly basis. But I have on my weekly review checklist, these habits that I have in progress or working on that I want to make sure happen. So these are, as I was reflecting on when we were preparing for the podcast, it might actually be sort of a shortlist. For my areas of focus or some things that I have extra attention on, that actually goes on a customized weekly review checklist for me as well. So that's sort of two places where I would look to establish that. I don't know how you would perhaps go about it.

Morten: No, I think that you are touching on the horizons of focus is an important part because fighting an addiction is that you're You're fighting a part of yourself you don't feel you have control over, or something takes control over you. And to, you know, horizons to focus, areas of responsibility is, of course, one part to look at. But to look at your life, why are you on the planet? And what would you want people to remember you for? What's your values? What's your principles? And very, very, very seldom I will guess some person will say that my highest value is to drink myself into an early grave and destroy my family. So which is often what I've seen with alcoholism, the, you know, the dire consequences of alcoholism. And so just to recognize that really Am I— is this within my value set? And if not, am I going to do something about it? And if you decided, and it looks like our writer's, our listener's mother has decided to fight this. And so, but use all the tools in the box, which means, you know, why, why I want to fight this? What is in for me? That might be questions, you know, as many Why? Until you get to the end of it. So, and just to ask yourself, why am I, why am I, why do I want to fight alcoholism? Why do I want to quit this? And then answer those questions as good as you can. And then write it down and put it on the fridge, put it on everywhere where you see it. So you will be reminded of why am I doing this, this quitting. And then secondly, I do agree that, you know, life in itself can be very difficult and there will be life changes that will come at us, all of us. And if you are in addition to have a, you know, maybe a job and maybe a little bit of a stressful life in general, if you then get alcoholism on top of that, that doesn't sound like a good, good, good I wouldn't say idea, but a good way of handling your life. And so to just— but you can then engage more, because this is my theory: alcoholism is physical. It's a physical addiction as well as a mental addiction. And I think that the physical addiction is something you can't You can fight it with some medicine, I think. This is not my area of expertise at all. But I think the mental addiction where you— When do you start to drink? And I've never been in a place where I can say that I could consider myself an alcoholic. But when do you treat yourself with something that's soothing? Because this is just the same as eating too much, smoking pot, doing something that you know is not good for you, doing drugs. It's just another, you know, watch excessive pornography. There's a lot of very deep topics that we can touch upon, but they have the same root is that you feel maybe you feel a little sorry for yourself and you feel, I need to, I need to take care of me. I need to do something for I feel better about who I am and my world and my, my life. And I think what leads there is tiredness. So when you are tired, it's so much easier to just, if in my life, to grab a beer or grab a bag of chips and just indulge ourselves. I don't know, Lars, do you ever do that? Indulging?

Lars: That might have happened once or twice. Yeah.

Morten: So, but I think that it is easier to do that when your brain is tired, when you're mentally tired. So make sure that your everyday life is as little stressful as possible because stress makes your brain tired. It uses up the glucose in the brain. And that's done. You don't have a lot of willpower left, or you can't evoke your frontal cortex as easy. You will, you will revoke to amygdala in the brain where, where your, you know, your Neanderthal person lives, where it will say, potato chips, right now I need, or I need a drink. So, and I think that if you, if you use Getting Things Done to get things out of your head and structure it outside your head, I think that might be helpful in that situation. My only concern is that it might be difficult for some person to do that on their own, to learn this on their own when they're in the middle of this struggle. So maybe your mother needs a little help if she wants to learn this. Maybe you need to help her, give her some tools, help her to just get all the things out of her head and help her clarify and organize that stuff and see if she feels a little better. If she feels a little better, maybe she's not so tired. Maybe when she's not so tired, she can fight this in a better manner. I don't know. What do you think, Lars?

Lars: No, but I completely agree. I mean, if, you know, the bad decisions that I make in my life typically come up when I have less energy. So from that perspective, it certainly makes sense. Absolutely. I would also, you know, one of the things that we are— I am not a certified trainer, but I read the book, The Power of Habit. So coming back to what you mentioned, Morten, about the cue, the triggers, the rewards, you know, working on that, there might actually be some inspiration in looking into that and seeing how you can maybe restructure some of those habits. Habits, how you replace that. There was a very interesting webinar with Charles Duhigg, the author, if I remember correctly. I don't know if that's available publicly. But it was a webinar that was made with Crucial Learning where he walks through this, some examples of how this might be done. So not specifically referring to this topic, but how you can then deconstruct those habits and build new and better ones. So that might be be a good place to go look. But yeah, just wanted to echo also the motivation part that we spoke about. So, you know, that, you know, from a GTD perspective, that really comes from the higher horizons, making it clear where you want to go, who you want to be. The running part, for example, for me, well, why do I do that? Well, it comes from the higher horizons. I'm somewhat motivated by a run, even though I, you know, had to lay down on the grass when I came home yesterday from running from the office. Ants crawling all over me. But, you know, the motivation really comes from the why, having a clear picture of, you know, working towards becoming healthier, being a good role model for the boys, looking good for my wife, living a long life with them all and being as little of a burden as I can when I get old. That's in the end what gets me to put on the running shoes.

Morten: Exactly.

Lars: Absolutely.

Morten: And then I was reminded you talked about Charles Duhigg and The Power of Habit. There's another habit book out there called Atomic Habits, which has a very interesting little thing that I might want to recommend, is that if you want to change something, you decide I want to change this habit, I want to change I don't know if it's biting nails or drinking alcohol, can be used at anything, I guess. And when you are reminded of your desire to change your habit, you should do a little celebration, little joyful dance, something, I don't know. But let's say I remember I will— I'm in the process now, This is very personal, but I'm in the process of losing a few kilos because I'm a little too big. I would like to be smaller and I have some goals I've decided for this. And just for me to remember that, okay, you decided to lose kilos. Yay, I can do a little. Yes, I will lose kilos. I'm not losing them right now. Maybe I just had a bag of potato chips, which I must admit happens every now and then. I don't, I'm not proud of that, but that happens. But it helps me keep a positive idea about what I want to change. Because a lot of the things that we want to change in our lives, that are habits, are hard. It's not easy and you need a lot of energy for doing that. And to give you any, you know, like you and I, we use, and this is on the subtle level, you use emoji cons on your emojis on your, in your to-do list for being more attracted to your projects. Why do we do that? Because it's a trick in the book. We know it works. So if you want to try celebrating that you remember, yes, I'm going to fight alcoholism, I'm going to be sober, I'm going to be sober, and that's going to be great. And just remember being sober being great, feel good about it, and make a little celebration might be something you want to try. What do you think about that, Lars?

Lars: Yeah, yeah, no, I seem to remember that as well from other presentations. And again, these small tricks, they just, they work, silly as it may sound, they actually do work.

Morten: And it is, there's so many things that we learned about getting things done throughout our journeys. Lars, I'm sure you will agree with me, are a lot of small duns, because it's like when you understand why it works, you go, okay, why didn't I do this all along? But it is, as David Allen would say, that everybody will recognize common sense when it comes and kiss you on the forehead. And hopefully we have given you a little bit of common sense approach on these very difficult topics today. So I hope that it provided some value for you.

Lars: Yeah, absolutely. He finished off the email by saying, thank you both for making this amazing podcast, and I look forward to the to following you and future episodes. And again, thank you so much for sharing these sensitive topics. Really, really appreciate it. And hopefully there was some food for thought that you might be able to use going forward. If anyone else have questions, big or small, like Morten said, podcast@visalearning.dk.

Morten: Exactly.

Lars: That's the place to send.

Morten: And do like and subscribe. This is my— like us in your podcast app. We have, we are, I'm not saying this to spite someone or feel that I'm superior or something, but it is, we must be allowed to celebrate is that we have more better star rating than the official David Allen Company podcast. Just saying.

Lars: As always, I'll leave the bragging to you, Morten.

Morten: Yeah, I do that. But if you like what we do and we find some value in listening to us. Like and subscribe on Face— oh, sorry, I was on Facebook, but on YouTube, and give us a rating on your, in your podcast app, and maybe you can recommend this to someone else so that we grow. We are getting close to a milestone when it comes to downloads, so thank you for listening and like and subscribe. Will you take us out, Lars, before I continue?

Lars: Yeah. So, um, we always wrap up these episodes with a quick reminder. Head on over to vitallearning.eu. On that website, you will find more information about the different things that we offer. Getting Things Done, Crucial Conversations for Mastering Dialogue, for Accountability, The Power of Habit as well. Um, and you'll find links to each of the country websites there as well. Book meetings with us to learn more about what we can perhaps help you with.. If you're outside the Nordics, plus head on over to cruciallearning.com to find your local partners. And lastly, the summer camp is fast approaching, June 17th to 18th, gtdsummercamp.com. You will find more information there about the program, which is being sent out as we speak. I think when we're recording this, this episode, really looking forward to seeing those of you there who will be able able to attend.

Morten: Yes, indeed. And if you can't join next year, send Lars an email at lars@vitallearning.dk, and he will put you on the list for information next year. So without further ado, I think I'm going to say the magical words: stay safe and stay productive. Take care.

Lars: Bye-bye.