55. GTD & Mental Health

Transcript

Automatically transcribed and lightly edited. Timestamps omitted for readability.

Morten: Hi and welcome to another episode of the Getting Things Done podcast. I am Morten Røvik and I'm here as always with my good friend and colleague Lars Rothschild Henriksen. Guten Tag, Lars.

Lars: Hi Morten, great to be here as always and looking forward to recording. This episode with you. If this is your first time listening to this podcast, we record them to support you in learning GTD or becoming even better GTDers so you can really experience the benefits of GTD. And we hope that you find these episodes really valuable regardless of how experienced you are with GTD. And if this is, you know, you'd like a refresher on the best practices and basics of GTD, we recommend you go back and listen to episodes 1 through 6. The podcast.

Morten: Indeed. And today, today's episode we have named Mental Health Generally and Specifically. We are going to address mental health issues and the fact that some of your mental health issues can be helped with getting things done. So we are going to start with Lars giving us the definition of well-being, mental health. And this is from the World Health Organization, I believe.

Lars: There are many different definitions. So when you, when you research the topic, a lot of different definitions show up, but starting off with the one from the World Health Organization, it's a state of well-being in which the individual realizes his or her own abilities, can cope with the normal stresses of life. Can work productively and fruitfully and is able to make a contribution to his or her community. So 4 different key topics in that one: realize your own abilities, cope with the normal stresses of life, work productively, and make a contribution to your community.

Morten: Exactly. And as I said in the pre-show, that sounds like GTD, the whole thing. So, but Let's talk about the, you know, the mental health. And please, everybody, we are not any, you know, psychotherapist or psychologist or anything professional here. So what we say are our opinions, and they may be wrong. We are fallible. We are human beings. Okay. So, but mental health is, you know, the general. And by the way, it's just been Mental Health Day. October 10th. So we are, you know, recording this a little late for this, but inspired also by the fact that Getting Things Done, Do Something, with parts of mental health problems. You know, mental health problems are really wide. And if you really need, you understand you need a psychologist or a psychotherapist or a psychiatrist or a professional please do go there, go to someone that can help you. And we are going to put in the show notes a link to, of all things in this world, who could talk about mental health, Netflix has put together a very good page for you that's called Wanna Talk About It? And we will link to that. Wanttotalkaboutit.com, where you will have national resources. So if you come from Finland or wherever you are listening, it will show your local national resources for mental health. So if you're carrying something you feel very difficult to carry, go talk to someone, talk about it, which is, I think, is the, the one thing that really works with mental problems, health problems is talk to people. Don't be afraid, don't keep it to yourself. I think that is the biggest trap you can fall into, because you want to succeed with your mental health problems on your own, which is very difficult. So, um, but are we, um, we are going to talk about, um, you know, the general non-well-being that we, we feel as normal human beings. And, and I would want to, us to kind of normalize some of them because, um, I'm sure throughout life it's very difficult not to have mental issues. And with that I mean that when life throws you difficult curveballs, you will feel out of control, you will feel bad about your life, you can be depressed. And this is, I'm just saying, this is part of life and it's normal. So let's just talk about it. I've talked about my mental health issues back in the day when I had my mental breakdown. I did a burnout, I had a burnout. Maybe we will link to that episode where I discussed this with the panel of David Allen Company++. Among others, David Allen was there, and to talk about this. And where I mentioned that I went on a sick leave for a very long time with a lot of anxiety because I worked too hard. And I know today that if I had GTD, I would not have gone there. This is the conclusion of that episode, is that because I have a way to manage whatever life throws at me, I don't keep it in my head, I externalize it. That makes a lot of help.

Lars: But that's, uh, episode 49 of the podcast is where you'll find— you can find it on YouTube as well, but, um, if you're on the podcast, you can go back and find episode 49. Yes.

Morten: So, um, and, and, uh, but we have mental health problems that are beyond normal people's ability to, to cope with. And that's what I allude to when I say want to want to talkaboutit.com. This is the place for you to find local professional resources. But, um, um, we talk about, you know, what is the symptom of, you know, mental health issues. And you had a definition somewhere, didn't you? Lars, can you read that back to us?

Lars: The definition from the World Health Organization had 4 sort of key things in it. Yeah.

Morten: But you talk about symptoms of the lack of mental health is you don't sleep good.

Lars: That's also true. Yeah. So there were 3 sort of key, some early signs as they mentioned, related to these health problems. Could be sleep irritation, lack of energy, and suicidal thinking. Are 3 key things to know from that.

Morten: Yeah, because it is, sleep is very important. And to be just, if you are feeling difficulties to sleep because you are worrying about things, I wouldn't call it a magic trick or the magic bullet, but it really works is that have a pen and paper and write your worries down before you go to sleep. Promise yourself, I will look at this tomorrow, but now I need my sleep. And that actually works. Unless your worries are really, really big, then I don't know if that's going to work either.

Lars: So yeah, no, and I do remember seeing studies about this as well that showed, you know, they did tests on this. So writing these things down, things that show up as you were going to sleep, they came to the conclusion that you fell asleep 15 minutes faster than you otherwise would have. So, yeah, that simple pen and paper step one in GTD to capture them, that really does help when it comes to sleep.

Morten: Yeah, indeed. So I wanted to talk about or show you people about the— we have something called the Yerkes-Dodson's law that we have looked at before, and I want to show you this now on screen. If I can do this, it looks like this. I will show you the curve because you can't see this, it's a little too big. But what I want to talk about here is that we have a lot of stress factors in people's lives. And when you have stress for a long time, it will lead to a lot of bad things in your life. So don't go there. And stress can be also coupled with overwhelm and the feeling of you can't you can't breathe. So, and we talk about one of the things that really is, um, something getting things done is doing something about. And that we think that a lot of the stress contributors in the work life is mismanaged expectations. And what do I mean with that? Well, I mean that when you give yourself too many things to do and there is not enough time, then you have mismanaged expectations both from yourself and from others. So if your manager believes you or wants you to deliver on expectations you are not capable of, then you are in stress. So, so let's look at— worth mentioning.

Lars: For those listening that there will be a link as well in the show notes so you can go in and see this as well as you, as you listen along if you want.

Morten: So let's look at the curve itself and then we will go and talk about the different parts of it. And I will hide this, hide this if I can now, Lars, if I can make us go away. And let's see, where are we? Technology is cool, but you have to find the right buttons. There we go, now we disappear. So if you look at this curve now, this has a performance axis and a stress level axis, and you have symptoms. So when this— when the stress level is increasing, your performance will increase until a certain point. And there will be different, what would you call it, symptoms or places where you will understand, you will feel that something is off. But if you look at this now and we look at the stress levels, is that a little stress level is good, or, you know, in the Goldilocks zone of stress, it's good. Because if you don't have any stress at all, you are inactive. You don't get up in the morning. And if you have too much, or sorry, a little more stress, you will also then, of course, maybe be, you know, underloaded and you are not engaged in your world. But when you have the optimum stress, you hit what we call stress-free productivity, which is getting things done. Helps you getting there. But then if you have too much stress, you are in overload and you feel fatigue, you feel exhaustion. It's not fun to be you. It starts to get not good for you. And if you are there long term, you get chronicled, then you are on path for what we call burnout. And these, uh, this stage is, um, according to the scientists who made this curve— anxiety, panic, and anger. And if you are really there for a long time, you go into the black part there, which where breakdown is. And this, I've been there, this is not fun. And episode 42, was it? 49. Thank you. But the symptoms, let's look at them. So if you remember, the orange is good and everything else, you know, you would prefer not to have. And you can have a look at the sleep Sorry, the, the, your mood, sleep, your, your ability to feel control, awareness, and decision. And I'm not going to linger here a lot, but if you feel that you are, you know, your mood is not good, you're irritable, or you're passive, you're under stimulated, maybe you should look at this and do something. If your sleep is not good Try and look at what can you do for getting into good sleep. If you feel you don't have any control on anything, or you have little control, maybe it's time to take some steps. And for your awareness and your decision-making, it's very difficult to make decisions when you are in overwhelm and in stress. And, and so, so the ideal is orange, where you have the optimum part of stress, where you have— sorry, the optimum amount of stress, where you can feel I am getting up in the morning, I'm making decisions about what to do, I am feeling in control, I am not overwhelmed, I feel it's fun, and I'm, I'm at the edge of a little too much maybe at some times, I'm— but I rang it in and I'm in control of my life. So anything to add for this, Lars? You think you would like to add something?

Lars: No, I think it's, you know, as always when it comes to GTD, we're not looking to be at a 10 out of 10 all the time. We're not always in the orange area as you described there. And right now I'm listening again to the Making It All Work book from from David where he again talks about this, that we're not looking to stay in that quadrant where everything is perfectly aligned when it comes to perspective, everything is under control. If you're not throwing yourself off course, maybe even daily, then you might be going stale a bit. So we're not looking to, you know, it's not like nothing will ever throw you off course, but we're looking to identify that, see that it happened, and and see if we can get back on again to the, to the right zone.

Morten: And, and what we also say about expectations and your feeling for, you know, when you have your ability to deliver on your expectations and others' expectations, that rises your stress level. But what also, you know, rises your stress level is that you're trying to use your head as a system. So, so So if you start, for those of you out there who are GTDers, there is, you know, ways you can think about this is if you have using your head as a system, stop doing that, it's going to help. But if you are overcommitted, you have too high expectation, or you allow the people around you to have too high expectation of what you should deliver on, you will continue to be stressed. So that's why having a look at your horizons of focus, going up to the areas of responsibility, and renegotiate them so that you have good days. And that is renegotiate what people expect of you to deliver on. So if you are, you know, you should be able, you know, when you stop using your head as a system, start using GTD, your productivity level goes up to that. Your ability to deliver on more is going up, but at some point there is a limit to everything. You know, you're just human, you're not superhuman. You're, you know, hacking your life with getting things done, trying to get more out of it. But at some point you need to stop and have a look and say, hey, I'm still working too hard, or I still feel, feel a little overwhelmed. Well, maybe that's because you're overcommitted yourself. So yeah, and as I said, you know, the couple, the, the We have a syndrome or symptom, I don't know what I would call this, but in Norway we have a saying about, or a term for someone who is a woman who is very good at her job, and she's flinkepike, which means a good girl, and she always over-delivers. She always wants to be, you know, she or he They are flinke gute, also good boys as well. They are overcommitting themselves. They are undermining their own psychology with overcommitment so that they never feel that they are on top of their world. And they are— I'm sure you have them in Denmark as well. We never overcommit. No, no, no, no. This, if you are, if you have this symptom that you always want to, you know, overcommit, you always want to overdeliver, you want to make everybody else happy but you. If you're having that as a personality trait or something that you have in your personality, you will always end up doing more than you should maybe. And then getting things done is not going to, to, um, to, to help you. But if you couple that with time optimism, you know, the, the Flink Peak and the Time Optimist, then you are setting yourself up for failure because you will never— oh, that will take 5 minutes, and 25 minutes after you're still at it.

Lars: So, no, and I clearly remember that myself, uh, you know, the perfectionism side of things, especially when graduating from the university and starting to work. Learning to deliver the, you know, the tasks at hand at the necessary quality level, not the optimal 110, 150%, but actually, you know, sometimes 70, 80% is just fine. And yeah, learning that, that, that, that took a long time. And I was actually recently reminded about this. I met a friend of a friend who we used to hang out with a lot. I met him at a concert recently and I was talking to him and he reminded me of how much I actually worked back then. That was one of the key things that he, he, he remembered about me was that, that I would, would you know, we might even be at a party and I might have checked my emails and I might have left the party and I would, you know, go up and work for a while and then come back and join them again. So yeah, that does sound familiar. I'm.

Morten: Glad that it was in the past for you. So yes, it really was. But just for people who are not very familiar with Getting Things Done, maybe we should Or maybe you could talk about the empty head, the only one thing on your mind, the idea of getting things done. Why are we capturing and doing the 5 steps? Can you give us a brief overview?

Lars: Yeah, well, I guess there are, depending on which path you want to take, there are multiple reasons to why you'd want to be there depending on your motivation for using GTD. But getting all that stuff out of your head into a trusted system is the basics. So we walk through that in the 5 steps as a starting point. Capturing all the stuff that has your attention, identifying where stuff shows up that you need to then deal with. For each of those things, make a decision. That's what we call clarify. So deciding what's the next action if it's actionable, and possibly if there's a project, then what's the desired outcome if there are multiple steps that need to take place. And then take that decision, put that into a trusted system. And actually, as I mentioned, I'm reading the Making It All Work book. And I think the— just to detour for for a short while. The trusted system thing, I think, was something that some people are not familiar with or would struggle with because what does that actually mean? And in the Making It All Workbook, he refers to it as, you know, that you don't— he refers to your calendar because that's obviously a list that most people have and saying that you don't think about your calendar. You know that the stuff is in there. You might have some attention on the activities for the day, meetings coming up or things like that. But otherwise, you trust that your calendar will remind you, and it's a list, a map to bring up to orient yourself. And so that would be the trusted system. And then focus on not just taking whatever is time-specific, but also on all the other stuff that shows up in your life, getting that into a trusted system and having the according maps that you need for that. Step 4 would be reflect. Take a step back, zoom out a bit, at least, you know, when you start off with GTD, a weekly review once a week, taking a step back and getting that overview. To make sure that everything is working smoothly and you're ready for the weeks to come. And step 5 being engage, working on the right things at the right time. So that would help you towards that empty head. Yeah.

Morten: So what you do basically is you write everything that has your attention down somewhere, then you, for making it staying, keep staying out of your head, you have to clarify what it means to you. So it's, and park it somewhere, the decisions, in a system you trust so that it will stay outside your head. And then you will have to reflect on it on a regular basis to maintain an overview and a feeling of control. And then you have to engage and do the stuff that you decided to do. And if you do that, your empty will— you're sorry, your head will stay empty, or your mind will stay empty. And it is easier to then focus on what's in front of you. But if you don't do that, if you do what a lot of people do, is that you are trying to have more than one thought in your brain at the same time, you are reflecting and you are interrupting yourself with conflicting thoughts and ideas. And, "Oh, I haven't done that." "Oh, I forgot that mail to Bob. I have to send that mail." And, "I have to call my father because something, something." And then all of these things are conflicting in your brain and you're trying to reflect on them at the same time. That's not possible. That comes with a cost. That cost is more time usage, around 50% more time, and your stress levels will go up, your cortisol level in your brain will go up, and you will be in stress. So the reason we are trying to do Getting Things Done, getting things out of your head, is to lower your stress levels with a very practical way of lowering your stress levels. And when you lower your stress levels, you get a lot of good feelings, good mental health, which is a feeling of overview, a feeling of control, a feeling of mastery, productivity. You feel you are doing something. And now we are back at the definition of well-being or mental health. And you can contribute to your, you know, your work and your family and your society. And And what is not news for you and me and for those who practice or do GTD, you feel more happy when you do your GTD. Exactly. And this is not just Lars and me saying this, but this has been measured. And correct me if I'm wrong, Lars, but we have two different surveys. Both of them, I think, are from our UK partners, NextActions Associates, or NextActions Associates and partners in Germany, where they have measured how people feel about happiness after getting things done. And I think that the numbers is between 72 and 82, or 71 and 82%, something like that. Sounds right. It says that they are more happy after they have started with getting things done. Yeah, exactly. And anecdotally, I can also tell you that, you know, I had just, I finished my workflow, sorry, virtual coaching sessions with a client and she's super happy. She writes me emails and she's like, oh, I feel so good. This is so good. So I feel like I'm in control of my life. I feel good about my commitments. I feel good about my direction. And that's why you and I get up in the morning, Lars, isn't it? People get those good feelings. Yeah.

Lars: I look back at some of the feedback that we got from coaching as well. And I found one piece of feedback as well from a coaching client in Denmark who specifically mentioned her mental health as being so much better than than before, far more confident and far less guilty, because a lot of guilt can really weigh you, weigh you down with all of these different commitments. So both personally and professionally really made a big difference. And even, yeah, lost weight, had so much more energy. So a lot of things really go together with this when you start to get that stuff out of your head and really start to manage those commitments in a better way, then a lot of things can happen. Yeah.

Morten: And we are, you know, there are alternatives to getting things done. And let's just look at them as we, you know, have come across them. We have mindfulness, which is, if I understand this correctly, this is a school of thoughts where you can train yourself to be more present in the moment. By, what would I call it, talk you through. For instance, if you have a thought, just let it come and then let it pass. Don't try and control your thinking, just let it happen. And that's, if I understand, the core of mindfulness is trying to be present in the moment. It's like mini yoga. No, sorry, mini meditation, I was going to say meditation. Which is more the heavier mindfulness. I'm not sure if I'm talking out of my one body part we shall not mention now. But about things I don't know, but mindfulness is, we talked about this before in this podcast, is that when you talk about mindfulness, the idea that you should be present in the moment, but it We have a colleague in the UK, his name is Robert Peek, and he said it so good one time, is that it's hard to be mindful when your mind is full. So, so if you want to learn mindfulness, maybe just have a pen and paper and just write every thought that you might want to do something about down, and then every other thoughts are just kind of floats in your brain that you will not do something about but is pleasant or hopefully good for you, then just be in that. And I'm sure, you know, and I know people who are doing meditation, people who are GGDers and are getting extra something out of the meditation. So I'm not dissing or I'm not, you know, trying to put mindfulness or meditation down, but they work, I would say, better in tandem with getting things done. Yeah, definitely.

Lars: I mean, you know, the mindfulness practice is certainly a good step. To get, you know, try to be better at managing all the stuff that bounces around in your head. And that's part of GTD as well. We just manage them differently instead of trying to push them away and learn to live with them. Then we try to figure out how we deal with them so they keep showing up in there.

Morten: Because I feel that if you are not writing them down out of your head, it's like trying to keep balloons underwater. You know, the second you let go of the balloon underwater, it will float to the surface, it will pop up. And especially if you have too many balloons you're trying to keep underwater at the same time, it's going to be the same feeling that are going to, you know, escape you and pop to your mental surface and bug you. So then we have like yoga, which is also an alternative for, you know, lowering your stress levels, which is very good for your body. I've not tried yoga myself, but I know people are telling me that there are, you know, good health issues, you know, sorry, good mental health help in that. But it doesn't take away your stress levels on a permanent, it's like you keep it at bay for a while, I think, I'm not sure, but your problems do not disappear. They will reappear at some point if you don't write them down and decide what to do with them.

Lars: But exercise in general, of course, will also be helpful along with the right diet and all that. It's certainly— and sleep, like we spoke about as well.

Morten: And so I would say that, you know, do all the good stuff that will help you feel good about you and who you are. And if you want to use Getting Things Done for that, good. Continue doing that. Write stuff down. That will help you. And it is easier to think clearly about your life and, you know, do something about it, you know, take control of your sleep, take control of your stress levels if you don't use your head as a system. Just write the things down, people. It starts there. Just write stuff out of your brain. It's so simple. And it's— and but it's so logical that if you write something out of your head, you promise yourself, I will look at this later. And then later you decide what to do with it, if anything, and then park it in a trusted system if you're going to do something about it, so that you know that will be your calendar and your list system, so that you can then, when you are ready to engage, you can engage with it. But then you have to look at this system on a regular basis to make sure that nothing slips. You're in control, you're keeping your system up to date., and then engage with whatever makes most sense in the moment for you, either what you decided that's on your calendar or what you find on your list if you have a little spare time or an hour or something in between. And it does really help. It has helped me tremendously. It helps me every day because I know I have too much to do. I really, you know, I don't know about you, but I know you, I'm sure you have the same feelings. You know, we have rich family life. We are engaged in things outside our work. And we have— I have— I'm trying to, you know, to build a business in the Nordic region with my partners. And, you know, I'm a board member of a company. And, you know, there are things happening in my life. It's very rich and it's very complex. I love it.. But if I try to keep it in my head, I will, I will kneel in a day or two and I will start crying because I can't manage this in my brain. I need an outside system. So, um, yeah. Okay. So we really need GTD. That's why we are doing it, isn't it, Lars? We really need that structure.

Lars: Yeah. No, but I was reminded about this recently with, you know, these commitments showing up and not being a good, GTD-er. I had a weekend ruined, which might be a bit of a too big of a word for it, but it really impacted my weekend. I had a speech Friday morning, and then I was traveling abroad for a weekend away with a business network that I'm in. And for some reason, and I always tell people this in seminars and coaching, don't be careful with with those emergency scans and checking inboxes when you're not able to deal with them because you don't know what kind of stuff might be in there that might really take your attention away from things. And I got an email back. I checked them. I got up Friday morning at 5 AM. I had to leave early. And for some reason, I decided, no, I just want to see what's in there, even though I knew I could not do anything about it during the day. And then the weekend was coming up. And there was an email in there that really threw me off where there was a misunderstanding about something that I had delivered as a speech, which was supposed to be a different format. So it really was a big misunderstanding. And I was, you know, it was a big client, was something that I really, you know, put my best effort into. And, you know, coming back to the perfectionism that I hinted at earlier, I really wanted to be excellent. And it really was the exact opposite because it wasn't what they were looking for. And that thought really struck me. Struggled getting that thought out of my head. And I just wanted to hang on to that reminder as, you know, why are we doing this? Why are we dealing with these things in the way that we do? So trying to get that out. And that led me also to the, you know, that leads back to the overwhelm part and also leads to the happiness part in, you know, getting all that stuff out of your head because there is so much, you know, it's great when you tick things off your list and that makes you maybe probably makes you feel good and it's great that we complete these things. But that that sort of happiness might go away fairly quickly. Where this, you know, when you have the right tools to manage the stuff that shows up, then you don't feel so bad about things that aren't done yet. You don't feel so concerned about things that might show up. And when things do show up, you have a framework and a way to manage these kinds of things. So you're again, not thrown away from that joy of just being present with whatever you're doing. That's really GTD. And I think that's A lot of what the feedback was in the surveys at Next Actions Associates in the UK really was to get all that stuff out of your head so you don't continually feel bad for all the stuff that shows up.

Morten: And it is something we've found, or that is the truth, is that what we call the Saganik effect, where everything that's not finished in your life will have a piece of your mind. Unless you write it down somewhere where your brain trusts it. Like when you use this in our keynote speeches and sometimes in the seminars, I think also that the idea of writing something down and park it where you can see it is very beneficial. For instance, if you go home, you're home, you're going to bed, you remember some papers you have to bring to the office the day after, you really, you can't forget them, it's really important. Where do you put them? Well, a lot of people say, I put it in front of the door, maybe in my bag in front of the door. And when you ask people, why are you doing this? Yeah, well, this is not— I will not forget it. I don't want to forget it. And then I ask, is that the whole truth? Maybe you put it in front of the door because you want to forget it as well. Because if you didn't put it in front of the door, what would happen is that you will be constantly reminding yourself, it's very important. I can't forget it. I can't forget it. You will sleep. Bad at the same time. But if you put it in front of the door, you create an idiot-safe system. You will not forget it tomorrow morning because you will pass the door, you will see your bag, you will take the bag, and in the bag is what you need to take to work. And so, so this is parked in a place where you're— then the front in front of the door is your trusted system. But in the bigger part of life, you can't put everything physically in front of— well, I'm sure you could, maybe like yellow sticky notes on your, on your door, leaving and maybe sticky notes on the bus and sticky notes in your office and in the toilet in the office, in the door, maybe everybody will put sticky notes for things they will not need to want to remember. But you need to have a place to park those reminders. That's in your calendar and that's your list system, GTD list system. But then to park things outside your head so that you can let go of them. You don't have to remember everything you need to get done. That is a waste of your mental energy. So get it out, put it somewhere where you can see it after and make decisions. Put it in a trusted system, look at that system, and then do. Which is now kind of massaging in the 5 steps of GTD all the time here now.

Lars: So I think, like you said, like you said earlier, it really, you know, comes back to what we started off talking about, which was the definition from from the WHO, um, you know, realizing your own abilities— that really is inherent in GTD— coping with the normal stresses of life— we've talked about that— work productively and fruitfully— that's certainly directly part of GTD as well— um, and ability to make a contribution to, to his or her own community. So, so that's, um, you know, for me, that, that's where a lot of the inspiration comes in. And I think you've touched on that as well— why do we do GTD and why other people contribute in the ways they do. So it really all comes back to how you could use these, these 5 steps and GTD in general to, to.

Morten: Support your mental health. Indeed. And again, I want to remind people that if you feel that you are in a position where you have serious mental health problems, please visit your local health authorities, talk to a friend, don't go silent. We mentioned wanttotalkaboutit.com. We will link to that in the show notes. So if you're feeling that you're not coping with your life and need help, please get help. Exactly. And remember, you know, get things out of your head. It makes a huge difference. As a sign-off, just a little anecdote is I have a client who are who's listening to the podcast, I'm sure he will understand who I'm talking about. But he has worries about big things he doesn't know how to do in his work. And we call them trolls, you know, the Nordic or Norwegian trolls. Of course, the trolls are scary creatures living in— scary giant creatures living in the forest or in the mountains. And they are super scary. That's in the fairy tales of Norway. No wonder we were Vikings, you know, at some point. You scare the crap out of children with the trolls. But he has his own trolls, which is worries of things he doesn't know how exactly to handle. But to identify the trolls, write them down, look at them, and ask yourself, what can I do to move this forward? How can I dissect this troll? And then when you start doing that, he becomes less and less scary, the troll. And somebody's a project, you know, where he can move forward on. And your fears of things are often bigger in your brain than in reality. Absolutely. So write them down, look at them. I have two psychologists who attended the course some years back who told me that, you know, they think that this is very good for patients who are struggling with a lot of, you know, thought fog, where you have too much things to think about, your brain is just storming with a lot of things to think about. Just write one thing down by another. And I wouldn't say voilà, you don't have this problem, but I think voilà, you will feel a little better at least. Exactly. Should we say that's it for today? I don't know if you exhausted this.

Lars: Let's, no, I think let's do that. Hopefully this was helpful for everyone to just, you know, talk a bit through this and hopefully gave you some thoughts on how GTD relates to all this. And we always wrap up the episodes. I have the pleasure of reminding you to head on over to gtdnordic.com to have a look around. Find the country websites for each of the Nordic countries. And on each of those websites, you can find articles about GTD, links to newsletters, groups on social media, and of course, all of the different offerings that we have, including speeches, seminars, and coaching, both physical and virtual. If you're outside the Nordics, gettingthingsdone.com is the place to go to find your local partners. And as always, we really hope that you find these episodes valuable. And if you do, we always appreciate it when you share an episode with a colleague or give us a good rating on iTunes. It really helps the discoverability of the podcast. We just passed 150,000 downloads of the podcast series. So thank you so much for listening.

Morten: I really appreciate it. Yeah. Thank you everybody who listens and thank you for sharing the podcast. And then, and as Lars said, it really helps the discoverability of the podcast if you rate it somewhere. Amazon has, you know, if you listen to Audible, give us a thumbs up if you feel that we are a podcast you will recommend to someone. So thank you for listening. And until next time, stay safe mentally and physically and stay productive. Bye-bye, everybody. Bye-bye. And by the way, we are on YouTube if you are not watching this. We forgot to mention that. I'm sorry, guys, or girls and girls. We are— the reason we talk about the stress graph, I told you the stress curve explained, is because this is also— we recorded on video. So if you go to gtdnordic.com, DK channel on YouTube. DK, or is that correct, Lars? That's your channel.

Lars: We'll have to put that in the show notes.

Morten: Okay, you will put it in the show notes, the links to the— so if you're looking at this not physically with the video, only listening, that might be a good idea. Then you can see us as well when we make mistakes and laugh. Okay, thank you. Bye-bye, everybody.

Lars: Bye, everyone.

Morten: Ah.