Episode 121 of the Getting Things Done® podcast. Listen above, or read the full transcript below.
Transcript
Automatically transcribed and lightly edited. Timestamps omitted for readability.
Morten: Hi and welcome to another episode of the Getting Things Done podcast from Vital Learning. I am, as always, have always been, and always hopefully will be, Morten Røvik, and I'm here, as hopefully always, with my good friend and colleague Lars Rothschild Henriksen.
Lars: Good to see you as always. And as always, good to be with our listeners and viewers out there. We always start off with a quick reminder of the purpose of this podcast, which is to help you learn GTD or become even better GTDers. We hope that today's episode supports you in that. If you're new to GTD, we always recommend you go back and listen to episodes 1 through 6 to get an introduction to the basics of GTD, the 5 steps. Today's episode is number 121, and today's episode is an interview episode with a GTD trainer and coach from Norway.
Morten: Indeed, it's an interview episode with Jonas Langeteig, who works at Leroy Seafood here in Norway. He is the head of Leroy office, and, um, in the interview, he is going to try and take us onto the path of how he uses OKRs and using Viva Goals for showing the OKRs and helping people get things done in his team and department. And we do have a bit of a disclaimer because after we did the interview, Microsoft decided that they are going to sunset the software he is showing off. When we have the debate going back and forth, Lars and I, before we started this recording, are we going to release it? Yes, because we think that the way that he thinks about this and how the software works is the most important thing. And I'm sure there will be some sort of software that will do some of the same things. So the principles here is what we think might be valuable for you as a listener or viewer.
C: Exactly.
Morten: And the, the sun setting is going to— they will stop updating last day of December 2024, and they will shut down the servers in December 31, 2025. So if you like this and you want to fiddle around with the OKRs within Viva Goals, you can do that for a full year. From now. So, should we just run the episode?
Lars: Let's do it.
C: And now, our special guest.
Morten: I have the great joy and pleasure to welcome to the podcast Jonas Langetaeg. Welcome, Jonas. Yeah, this is your second time here. The first time you were here, you talked about Lean and GTD. And for those who are interested in those topics together, can go back to that episode. Jonas is a family father. He is living in Oslo, working in Bergen in Norway, and he works as the head of Lerøy Way, which is an office there which he will tell you something about in just a second, and his function there. And the Lerøy Seafood Group is the company that he works in, and Jonas, what would you like people to know besides what I just said? And maybe you could explain what is Leroy Way?
C: Yeah, that's a good question. So I work in something we call Leroy Way Office. So our work is to help people in Leroy to adapt the Leroy Way of working. And that's our, we call it our business system. It's based on the lean principles, and we've been doing that for 6, 7 years now. So we're improving and we're building our system along the way.
Morten: And am I correct to understand you've been talking about getting things done, is that you are also very much a getting things done department? And well, not fully yet, but getting there, the company, Leder Seafood Group, is also going towards learning, getting things done. Isn't that correct?
C: Yes, absolutely. So I see a strong link between GTD and Lean, as we have talked about that before in another podcast. So I'm also a GTD trainer and a GTD coach. Which we use in our improvement efforts. Because we see, if you want to improve, everything starts with the person, right? So, the person needs to have control, and the person needs to have perspective. Everything starts out with that. And I have not found a better method to help a person to improve control and improve perspective than GTD. And if anyone out there has one method that is better, I would like to know about that method, but I have not found it yet. So I'm still sticking with GTD.
Morten: At the end of this episode, I'm probably going to ask you how can people get in touch with you, and I'm sure that they will. You could have some people reaching out to you asking, but you're kind of preaching to the choir here since this is the Getting Things Done podcast. People are And we don't need to be convinced that Getting Things Done works because we know it works. But the reason I've asked you to come on board in this episode, Jonas, is, as you know, the reason that you actually did post at, I think it was GTD Connect, or at least one forum where you posted a screen dump of your the Viva Goals that you've been using as a tool, Microsoft Viva Goals, which is an app inside the Office 365 system that most people who have Office 365 has also this module. And you are leading your people and tracking their progress using Viva Goals. And that I found deeply interesting. And that's why you are here. We want to know how do you do that? Because a lot of people who are just put put it in context, a lot of the people that I talk to, they are very much into GTD and they want to get better, but then they have departments that is either GTD or not, but they want to track their people, making sure that they reach their goals and the key targets that they have in their work. And the team book, the team Getting Things Done with Others from David Allen and Ed Lamont that just recently came out in, or not recently, It was in May, I think, also talks about how can you as a leader make sure that you maintain an overview of where people are. And for those of you who don't know, this is a little tidbit of a fact, is that Jonas is one of the contributors to that book. So hey, what's not to like? So Jonas, Please, I'm going to— when you tell me, I will switch so we can share your screen and you will explain a little how this works. And is there anything you would like to share with us or talk to us about before I start screen sharing?
C: No, I think it's— if you want to collaborate with people as well, you need a method. And the method we have chosen in my department is the Objectives and Key Results, or OKRs. So that is a method for me, for, for me, for, for a team or a company to— how do they work together. And what we have done is, is, is to connect the OKR framework and the GTD framework. That, that, I think that is the powerful— that is the most powerful thing we have done. Yeah, so I think that's, that's, and if you look into it, and if you're really a true GTDer, you see that the OKR frame, that's an OKR framework, that's, that's only a bunch of projects lists on different levels, and it will, that will, it's right, it's the same thing.
Morten: It makes sense. Yes, it is. And, but it is just, it's framed another, you know, another way to do it. So it's lean GTD and OKRs flow together and they can work together to create better productivity and less stress and more overview and control in a company, which is of course what we want. So, okay, Jonas, I will start sharing your screen and you can start showing us the goodies. So you will first walk us through some of the— well, I understand the Lara way first principle understanding the business case.
C: Yes, that's correct, because you always need to start with this. You can't just do a bunch of things and, and as you see, you can't. Yeah, yeah, of course a lot of people do. Yeah, a lot of people do, but I think you should start with the— I think you should start with this. And for you who knows GTD, you see this is the perspective bit, right? So where do we want to be? What's our— what is the long-term goal? And then you need to figure out, okay, where are we today? What's happening today? And then you need to make these short-term goals. So what I'm showing today is how our department works. And our department, we're 15 people, and we're helping the rest of Leroy, which is 6,000 people, to improve. So We do small projects and we do a lot of stuff, so we need our 15-people team or department need a way to track everything and see that we do the right things on the right day or month or quarter. So this is where I think everyone has this, where do we want to be? How do we get there? And then, okay, how do we do this short term? What's our short-term goals or short-term desired outcomes? Or what's our projects, as we would say in GTD. But I think working in a team setting or department setting, I think it's a very good idea to make these goals time-sensitive. So we say, okay, we work in months or quarters, or we put dates, deadlines in a group setting. I think that is very smart, and we have done that. And that's what's— and that is what also the OKR framework to help us with to see that, okay, that's smart.
Morten: So, well, working together with other people and making sure that everybody is making meaningful, you know, progress on the most important things is, of course, and coordinate the whole thing, and then deadlines is not a bad thing. Not at all. So, good.
C: Yep. And then we can, so then we can dive into Microsoft Teams. Viva Goals.
Morten: Yeah.
C: So this is the system. You can find it up here. A lot of stuff in Microsoft these days, but Goals, it says Goals, and then you need— then it just pops up. What we see here is— for those.
Morten: Of you who might be listening and a little confused now, you might want to see this in YouTube. And another reason I'm saying this is because what you are doing now, you say opening Microsoft Edge and you are in the Office 365 environment and you just click the 9 dots up in the left corner and wrote Goals and boom, it's there. Just for people to understand what you are doing. So, okay, so now we are inside Goals.
C: Yes. And then just another— before we started with Microsoft To Do, we have already run this process on a PowerPoint file for a couple of years. So we were kind of drilled in the method, and it's the same in GTD, right? It's not about the tool. It's not like, oh, I just got the right tool and then I am all GTD. It's exactly the same thing. So we used PowerPoint for, I would say, 3 years maybe, and then our PowerPoint file, as we grew as a department and then with 15 people, it was a lot of stuff to track within that PowerPoint. So we felt, okay, we need a system.
Morten: I'm sorry, but you said PowerPoint?
C: Yeah, PowerPoint SS.
Morten: Okay, because that is not exactly what I would— would we be expecting to do some OKR tracking in? No, no, but good. Okay.
C: Yeah, we're just starting out with that. A long— I don't know how we ended it, but we just started out and then, okay, we need something new. And then we found Microsoft Viva Goals. So, okay, so here we are at top level. So here I, as a manager, I can see the tracking. So we start in October and we finish in the 31st of December. And then I can see there's a line here, as you can see. So we're reaching 100%. That's our goal. And we can see how we are tracking towards that.
Morten: And that's the collective, all of the OKRs you're tracking. Okay.
C: Yes, so I'm going on holiday next week and I can see if my boss calls me now, I can see how, oh, how are you doing with your projects, Jonas? And I can say, okay, we're supposed to be at 30% finished, but we are on 29, so we're good. No problem there. And then on the top level here, you see the what we call the areas. And here you see in our, in our, in my department, we have 8 areas we track and, and, and responsible for that area as well.
Morten: So that's— so you assign, you, you have assigned areas to people so that they know what they're responsible on delivering on?
C: Yes. And, and, uh, yes, and there's 8 areas, uh, and this is, uh, in OKR terms. This is what we call the objective, the, the, the ambition. What, what's, what, what, how are we moving this area forward?
Morten: Okay, so to say, so is it, um, just for, for people to understand what it is in GTD terminology, is that, is this an area of focus or is it like a main project or a bit of both?
C: Yeah, I would say it's a bit of both. It's the first part, that's, that's an area of focus, and then the second part here, that's, that's actually in GTD terms, that would be a vague project.
Morten: Okay, but it gets specified under— but how do you track that? How do you make sure that it is, it's not vague when people start working on it?
C: No, then you need to track, uh, that's the OKR method, right? So then you need to drill down to what we call key results. And the key result, I think the guys in, in, in, um, I think it was Intel who made it, and Google used it a lot. So, and the key result, it's, it's, that's, that's, uh, very much more stricter. It's, when it's finished, you can say yes or no. It is measurable. So, and that's the thing here. So if we drill down, I'll just take in an easy one now. If we drill down, you can see what we call a key result. So this is a key result.
Morten: And.
C: Here is the link. And it's probably not— if you ask the GTD guys and then you ask the OKR guys, they will probably not be aligned, but I have made the link, so I had— and this works. For us at least. So what we have said, we say that the key result within OKR, that is the same as the desired outcome in CTD.
Morten: Yeah.
C: So this is the link between the two methods, and this gives us some interesting possibilities because now this, this, uh, okay, now we start here. Now we are translated from OKRs to GTD. So this is now a project.
Morten: Okay, so it has a beginning and start, it has this, you know, it has, uh, it points on what does done look like.
C: Yes, it points on what done look like. And so, and this, what do you do with the project within GTD? Uh, at least I think you should, uh, do your weekly review and then in the weekly review, you see, okay, how is this going? What's the next action on this? And then as you do the weekly review, as anyone in my department do the weekly review, I have said they need to check this in. They have to check in this project in Viva Goals. So then they have to push this check-in button., and then say, is this project on track? Am I behind? Is it at risk or is it not started? And then they also write in what's the next action happening here. This is not linked to anything. So this is a total separate system for their own GTD system. But this gives us as a company of 15 people working all around Scandinavia, sort of thing, the most important projects, every, every, um, the most important department projects we have, then we have full track of them all the time for everyone does this every week. Yeah. So, and this we have found to.
Morten: Be a very good— yeah, I, I do believe, I do believe you. And one of the things that I'm, I'm struck by is that.
C: By, you.
Morten: Know, defining the, the, the what, what you and I in GTD terms will call desired outcomes or projects. What does done look like under the, the OKR framework? And it becomes what in the team book they call projects with a big P. Yes. So, so, and then the And the reason that is important is, of course, you are not alone in a team. You work with others towards shared goals, and together you will achieve them. And without tracking somewhere, it becomes more difficult, I'm sure, for a lot of people, more difficult to make sure that you are actually moving in the right, especially the manager. So I guess that you're, I'm sure you are very happy for having this because If your boss calls, you can just open Viva Goals and tell people exactly where you are, give or take a percentage.
C: Yeah, that's really true.
Morten: Yeah, sure. No, I just wanted to say that I just wanted to try to make the link through because now we have big P projects, little p projects is personal projects where you have your projects where that you are responsible, not the department or the team. So if I was working for you, I then had to copy my desired outcome from the Viva Goals and have it on my personal list and then create next actions where the first one could be the one I've decided on in the weekly review going and did a check-in. Do I understand correctly?
Lars: Yeah.
C: So it's two separate systems.
Morten: Yes, I understand. And we looked at this before we started, is that there is no— you can, but you can link. I will start sharing again. So may I want to show that if you have, let's say you are this first OKR, you have the Ramy Varki Q4 framework. Q4, if you open that again, you showed how you can link Do you know what I'm talking about now? Because you showed that before, the three dots, and you did.
C: Some updates. Yes, here is the share link to this.
Morten: So you can share your, you know, the desired outcomes that you personally are going to be measured on, link to that, and then use that in your in to-do or to-do list or whatever program you use.
C: So, yeah, and that's also— and sorry, and also what you do, what one thing you do which is very easy is that you, you just write the view within Microsoft Viva Goals. So, okay, give me all my KRs, key results, for the fourth quarter, and then you get a list with 5. So, so that's also check. I have not, because I also check in stuff here, right? And I don't want people to say, hey Jonas, I can see you have not checked in your QoS.
Morten: That's not a good leader. No, no, no, definitely not. And it is, it is, as David would say, that you are eating your own dog food. Or at least you are using the system you have created. Yourself. And I'm just thinking that, well, we also talked about this a little in pre-show, is that we hope, or I hope at least, that there will be a tighter integration towards Microsoft To Do. And I'm sure that this is on the roadmap for Microsoft, so that when I decide my next actions, they can just go straight into my project. And the the desired outcomes here can also be imported or shown in either as delegated to me or as I can just put them inside my own project lists. That at least makes a lot of sense to me so that when I tick it off in to-do, it shows off as done here if I do something.
C: So there is some integration, but we have not gone into that. But there is some integration, but I don't think it's good enough yet. But I see they're working on it and I guess it's I guess this is going to come, as you say.
Morten: Yeah. And, and as an, you know, you, there is a lot of things you can do with, you know, automation. Microsoft has an automation tool where you can build automations. I'm not sure if that will work here, but, but what I'm dreaming of is the day when they will, in the system, make a, you know, fully native what you call integration or connection between Microsoft To Do and the goals. That makes a lot of sense.
C: So yeah, absolutely. I think we'll get there.
Morten: Anything else you would like to talk about with regards to the goals, your goals?
C: No, I think one thing is that important is It's like, just emphasizing that it's the method. So it's not about, uh, it's a— this is a nice tool, but it's the method, uh, the OKR method we use. And I think there's a lot of good stuff in that method on how you collaborate and how you— how do you make these guys and how do you check them out and how do you do your retrospective and, and how do you work with as a.
Morten: Team.
C: So that's a good method, as GTD is a good method when you have the project and you take it into the person's own project list. GTD is an extremely good method, and I find working like them working together gives us a lot has given us a lot. And just to see this link and be able to use both in a team setting, that has been very good for us.
Morten: And as I see this, it is a very good tool for, you know, enhanced transparency, who is doing what and what's the progress. And at the same time, it fosters accountability because everybody knows what you're doing. You can't hide.
Lars: Yeah.
Morten: So.
C: Good. And the last one, it's, it's, it's an easy way to see, because if you, if you build this into that, that everyone updates their key results or check in their key results every week, then, then as a manager, you, you can help people when they start to struggle. And it's, it's not like 2 months down and then you say, whoa, this is delivering in 2 weeks. People are, they're checking this every week and they have to report on this every week. And it's just because these guys I work with, they're super efficient and super good. It's not about the control, it's more about, okay, how can we help as soon as there are any obstacles? And we see also that this is a good tool for.
Morten: That. And as you said, I will paraphrase our German friends. I don't know, some person in Germany said this in a GTD community in Germany. At least that's how I've heard it before. But when it comes to Viva Goals, it's like Microsoft To Do or Todoist or any other tool. A fool without a tool is still a fool. So make sure that you know the methods behind or the methodologies behind. So we are talking now OKRs and GTD. And if you understand the core principles of those, you can create and use Viva Goals with benefit for you and your team, for your big projects, team projects, and personal projects, so that you can break it down and track how you're doing. Yeah, absolutely. Great, Jonas. Thank you so much for your time. And as I normally would do when at the end, And I would like to ask you, if people want to connect with you, how can they do that?
C: They can send me an email.
Morten: Yes, that's an invention. Yeah.
C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, not only, so just put it in the link or say it out loud.
Morten: And if you want to give out your email address to the big world, you can. And if you have a good spam filter, I'm sure you can tell us, you can tell us now and we can talk after if you will put it in the show notes.
C: But yeah, very good. So if you are listening to this and you are an avid GTDer and you have read the OKRs method book and you're just, oh, how is this working together? If you are a combiner, you could send me an email at jla@leroy.no.
Morten: Okay. So Leroy is L-E-R-O-Y. Oy.no. So, Leroy, great. And remember, you must know Getting Things Done, and you've studied OKRs a little, so you have an idea what that is.
C: Then you can send it, because I didn't invent those.
Morten: No, no, no, no. And there is tons of good resources out there for, for, for where you can learn more about OKRs and And there is tons of good information about getting things done. This podcast is one of them, I hope.
C: Yeah, absolutely.
Morten: Highly recommended. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. By the way, do you recommend your people to listen to our podcast?
C: Absolutely. I podcast and I tend to talk a lot about GTD. So they get their weekly dose, I.
Morten: Think. Weekly dose of GTD, that sounds good. Well, again, thank you so much, Jonas, for your time and energy and for your insights into Microsoft Viva Goals. I hope that our listeners found this beneficial and send Jonas an email if you would like to know more and know GTD and OKRs. Okay, good enough, I hope. Thank you, Jonas. Take care.
Lars: Pleasure. Bye-bye.
Morten: Now, Loris, I don't know what you think. I find software is fascinating, but methodology is just as well important. What is your first impression from the interview?
Lars: Yeah, you know, we tend to talk about this as well, also from a GTD perspective, the ways of working and the tools that we need, and it all goes together. Now, it's always good to hear from Jonas and interesting to hear how they use it. You know, with that level of commitment and value that they get from it and the process they have, I'm sure they'll find some other software to support this workflow so they can continue going forward like this.
Morten: Yeah, I was the harbinger of the bad news for Jonas that I've found that they are going to sunset Viva Goals. He said, okay, thank you for the information. The hunt is on for finding a replacement for this. So I'm sure Yeah, he will be back maybe next year with a new tool he can talk to us about. And one of the things that I've had the great privilege of meeting some of the people in Jonas's team and very dedicated young people. The way that he leads them is an example for a lot of people who want to run a GTD team or a team based on the Getting Things Done methodology. So, I'm sure we will come back to him with an episode where he will in-depth tell us how he coaches, how does he get his team to work optimally. And, uh, yeah, and if I'm not very mistaken, I, I, I, I'm, I'm not 100% sure about this, but I, I, what I remember from, from one of our conversations, or I'm one of the conversations I had with Jonas, is that he It is when you start there, he's telling people, are you willing to learn getting things done? And if the answer is no, then sorry, you'll have to seek employment otherwise somewhere else. And it is a way, a great way of getting your team to work is to help them grow. So, okay. Anything to add, Lars? Before we close this episode?
Lars: No, just the usual things with, of course, first of all, a quick reminder of the GTD Summer Camp 2025. It is, you know, it is slowly approaching. And we want to make sure you sign up in time because they are, you know, it'll be a lot of fun this year. I promise the tagline of this year is community focused. So community-focused, full stop. Um, so it's both for the community and by the community, and it's a focused community. And community— and we're all focused when we get there. So, you know, you'll have the mind like water when you leave the summer camp, inspired and have a fantastic GCD system, everything. Yeah, you know, all the, all the good stuff that comes with the summer camp. June 14th to 15th in Denmark, once again, same venue as in previous years at Kobek. So we can have the higher horizons look out towards the water, perhaps go for a swim, whatever you want, whatever.
Morten: Helps you have that. Yeah, on the beach. I always look forward to that.
Lars: I do too. I do. So hope to see you there. gcdsummercamp.com is the place to go for that. The other place to go is visalearning.eu. Go and have a look around, see our different offerings, both within Getting Things Done, but also Crucial Conversations for mastering dialogue, for accountability, Crucial Influence, The Power of Habit, GCD coaching speeches, and you know, everything, newsletter, everything. Go and have a look, the old good old articles that we have there about GCD as well. Go and have a look. You'll find your way to the different country websites. If you need to reach out to Morten or myself, you can find that there as well. And if you're outside the Nordics, go and have a look at cruciallearning.com to find your local partners or.
Morten: Gettingthingsdone.Com. Or GTD Focus if you are interested in the latter, going to be with coaching. So coaching, GTD Focus outside the US— sorry, outside the Nordics. Um, sorry for the people in America. GTD Focus. Um, good. Um, just one thing I want to add is that I just— a little tidbit— I, I talked to a GTDer here in Norway yesterday who said that one of the things that he came back with after last year's summer camp is that he got a GTD buddy in the US and they are still in contact. They talk about their practice and they do their weekly review together. Wow. Across the pond. That is so cool. And that is GTD community in a nutshell. We, they are, we, the GGGers are the nicest people and we help each other.
Lars: Yeah. Yeah. Well done guys or guys or girls.
Morten: Two guys. So well done. Okay. And with those words, I would like to close this episode as I always do by saying stay safe and stay productive. Bye bye.
C: I won't—.
