Episode 119 of the Getting Things Done® podcast. Listen above, or read the full transcript below.
Transcript
Automatically transcribed and lightly edited. Timestamps omitted for readability.
Morten: Hi and welcome to another episode of the Getting Things Done podcast from Vital Learning. I am, as always, Morten Røvik, and as always, I'm with my good friend and colleague Lars Rothschild Henriksen. Privet, Lars.
Lars: David Martin, good to see you and everyone out there listening and watching. We always start off with a quick reminder of the purpose of this podcast, which is to help you learn GTD or become even better GTDers. We hope that today's episode supports you in that. If you are new to GTD, we always recommend you go back and listen to episodes 1 through 6 to get an introduction to the basics of GTD, the 5 steps. Today's episode number is number 119, and today's episode is an interview episode. But first, a quick reminder for your calendars, right, Morten?
Morten: Exactly, because we are planning to do a live-streamed weekly review. We want to gather as many people as we can on a video conference webinar together where we will all do the weekly review at the same time. So live-streamed weekly review where you will attend from your PC or Mac, and I think we will use Zoom maybe to do this, and we will live stream everything on, well, channels that we don't know exactly yet, maybe YouTube and the, the, and LinkedIn. We think that's probably the two channels. And we would like you to get the date in your calendar. There will be invites later, but the date that we have decided on, Lars, is December 10th, correct? Right? Yeah. And, and we've decided to, to try and accommodate people on both sides of the pond. And because we have quite a few hours of time difference. We've decided to do this early in the morning in the West Coast of US and then in the later in the afternoon for the people in Europe and in the CET zones. So for CET zone will be 4 o'clock to 5:30, so 1.5 hour with live streaming where we do it together. Guided weekly review. And in the US, that will be 7:00 AM. So brew a hot pot of coffee and get up early and open your laptop and join us for a weekly review on the 10th of December. Anything to add, Lars?
Lars: No, I think you covered everything. December 10th, 4:00 PM for the people in the CET. And yeah, hopefully that'll fit a lot of people's calendars. We had, you know, we've done this. As we spoke about in the pre-show, a number of times now in the summer camps, doing them together as sort of a now standard part of the, the last day of the summer camp. And it's just that, that feeling is just amazing, the energy in the room. And we're probably not going to recreate that exactly the same way, but no, like you said, hoping to get a lot of people together and try this out, doing, doing it in collaboration with everyone else. We actually do that sometimes in the Danish GTD community. We haven't done it as frequently as I wish we could in Denmark, but when we do and we gather 5, 10 people, just, just that amount of people, it's just, there's something else about it. And, you know, afterwards, debriefings and what did you come up with? And before the session, you know, what are you, this is something that has special attention now, something you wanna focus on. Oh yeah, that, that project's list has gone a bit stale. All right, well, we'll talk about that afterwards. And, you know, it's a, it's a lot of fun and, uh, looking forward to this, doing this globally. Yeah, I don't think I've done that. It's been a while since we had an event like that.
Morten: It has. And the benefit for you, the participant, is that if you don't have the weekly review in your calendar already, you're not doing it on a regular basis, or even if you are doing it on a regular basis, you can then create an auto-schedule and do it with others. There's something that happens when a lot of people are together, or people are together, is the focus gets laser sharp because, you know, everyone else on the same call is doing exactly the same as you. Not exactly the same projects, of course, but when you do your calendar review, and it is a guided weekly review, so you will be guided through how to do it, and you will get the benefit of doing it with others. So, yeah, well, what's not to like?
Lars: Yeah, we hope to see you there. It'll be fun.
Morten: It will be. And today I've done an interview with René Lee. René is the second in command in the Norwegian Naval Forces Band, and I've been asking him questions during this interview regarding his role as an in-house trainer for the armed forces in Norway. Which for a lot of people, myself included, was kind of like, huh, how did he do that? How did he become an in-house trainer? Well, to be an in-house trainer, it's not a, that's not very, you know, that's possible for anyone who has, who wants to deliver GTD courses in-house in a company or an organization. But to do it in an organization that is really a part of big bureaucracy, how did he do that? How did I pull that off? And he will answer. The question on how he did that and how he thinks that getting things done will benefit the Armed Forces of Norway if widely implemented. So I hope— I find that a very interesting, interesting question. So should we just roll the interview, Lars? Anything? Let's go. Yes, let's roll the interview. And now, our special guest. I have the great privilege privilege today to talk to René Li. He's second in command in the Norwegian Naval Forces Band, and he is a person I've known for some time. And I would like to ask you, René, can you please introduce yourself to our podcast audience?
C: Certainly. As you said, my name is René Li. I'm a former musician and now second in command, as you say, in the Norwegian Naval Forces Band. Based in Bergen in western Norway, Norway's second largest city and Europe's most rainfall city with more than 200 days of rain per year. So I started out as a musician more than 20, it's 25 years ago as a student. And then that opened the gates into the armed forces as a musician back in the day. And slowly I switched over to administration and management. So, um, that led me over to my current position. I've done the same job in 3 of Norway's 5 military bands.
Morten: Okay, good. Thank you. And that puts you, uh, on the, on the map and, uh, what you've— your background. And, um, can you tell us a bit more about your background when it comes to getting things done. How were you first introduced to the GTD methodology?
C: Yeah, it's a fun story that actually dates back to around 2007 or '08, where a colleague of mine had discovered a new app for his Mac. It was OmniFocus, and that was kind of a door opener to the GTD methodology. I remember that the default project was to read the GTD book. So I got that for my iPod Touch, and I acquired the book, read it, and just— I didn't dive really deep into it, but I took some things out of that, implemented only a few parts of it, and it kind of faded away. Along the way, I thought that maybe I should try to see if this was something I could adapt and translate into Norwegian. Kind of played with the idea of that. And all of a sudden, one morning, I saw the breakfast show on TV, and there was this guy called Martin who had started this company. So someone beat me to it. But that was the kind of the small birth of the GTD in my life. I didn't really implement it. It kind of faded away. And over a period of about 10 years, I suffered from long periods of stress-related sick leave, headache, tension headaches, and a lot of problems, to be honest. And, and at some point, I think it was because our workplace switched over to Office 365, I thought, now I'm going to implement GTD. It's kind of grew out of from the back of my head or something. So I picked up the book. I actually, I found the setup guide for Asana, which I was using for my just kind of a to-do list half-heartedly. And I saw there was a setup guide. So I followed that, set up my email, set up everything. And then came Corona. And I thought that I think that GTD courses and related things got more visible, at least for me. So it was a kind of a natural transition into triggering my curiosity towards taking a course. There was an appointed course in Bergen with Kalle Ivar through a company. I don't remember what company it was. It never came about because of the lockdown and stuff, and it ended up with becoming a virtual course. So I took the virtual course, Level 1, the old course, in, I think it was June 2020. That was my first course, and then I did, I think it was around Christmas, I did the Level 2 with yours truly, Morten, as instructor. Yes. And And then I started playing around with the idea of becoming an instructor. I remember that you and Lars talked about it in the podcast, how you did the certification every 2 years. You had to be a practitioner for, I think it was 2 years. I didn't really qualify at the time, but I got in touch with you, Morten, saying that there was something I was interested in. And During this process, everything changed. The Vital Learning course, Crucial Learning course came about and things got a little bit mixed up and stuff. So yeah, I did the certification in, was it in 2022, I believe? Yeah, with Espen as an instructor. And the rest is history.
Morten: As they say, as they say. So I'm sure that as you, there is quite a few of our listeners who are interested in becoming certified inside their own organization, like you've been for the Armed Forces in Norway. And I would like to ask you, what was the process like to get certified? And I'm not talking about the certification as itself, but the challenges that you saw when you wanted to become one? Because I'm sure there is some bureaucracy and red tape. So how did you— because the armed forces is, at least for me, an organization that I know is, they don't easily decide something. It needs to be calculated and has to be thought about. And there is a lot of other organizations out there that I know has the same. So how did you do it? Give us the insights here now. Spill the beans.
C: Yeah, you're right. Things tend to take some time in this organization, and that's most of all because of rules and regulations and certifications, approvals and everything. So it's not that there's no will to implement, but there are a lot of considerations to take. And as I jokingly say, it's really easy to become a crook if you don't play by the rules, so to speak. But, um, I have to say that my role as an internal instructor in the armed forces is not, uh, an assignment I'm given from above. It's kind of sprung out from below, so to speak. But it's, uh, much of that is, uh, thanks to my, my nearest leader, which believes in the methodology, practices it herself. She's been to a course of mine, and then the leader one step above that is also a keen practitioner. So I had some allies who opened some doors. It means that the decision and also the cost for that matter, it's on our level instead of going way up in the organization. So we kind of own the process down on our level. Which gives us also the possibilities to decide and to actually do it. So in other organizations, I think that some organizations have another focus on productivity and quality systems, and that the GTD methodology fits into that. And it's kind of, it's dripping from above, so to speak. But in our organization, we have a lot of systems and practices and stuff that's related.
Morten: Yes.
C: And our own models, so to speak. So GTD is probably not on the radar in that sense, but it certainly fits very well. And I have had now, I'm closing in on my 10th course very soon. I have so far, I believe it's 72 participants and counting. So it's spreading out and the feedback is good. People feel that this is something they can use. And I think that because I'm not given an order to do this, I am free to say that Okay, this is good in your workplace, but I also focus a lot on your personal life. So bring this home. And I also believe that by implementing this in your personal life, you also reap the benefits in your work life. So we're a whole person, right? So you can't put a barrier between your personal and professional life.
Morten: So yeah, I have a little follow-up question here when it comes to them, because you are teaching people across the armed forces. You're not restricted to the Norwegian Naval Forces band itself, because then— but you are doing it. And how do you find your, what we call it, clients or your students? How did— how do they find you and sign up?
C: To the last part of the question, they don't. I find them. So, um, but that's, um, that, that is a sub-question.
Morten: How do you decide?
C: Yeah, so, um, um, because I, I'm first and foremost, I'm doing my job as a second-in-command, which is 100% position. So this is kind of a bit on the side of my job and it doesn't really fit into my role, so to speak. So it's, it's just an added bonus. But as I say, thanks to GTD, I have freed up the time and energy to do this in addition. But I don't follow a plan, so to speak, to get more clients to reach this and this department. I just always have the radar on. So I just grab whatever opportunity that comes up, and then there's word of mouth. But I have a couple of examples. One is that I attended a course on Skype in the armed forces, and one participant said, hey, I have a question for you, can we meet tomorrow? Sure. And then as part of that, he showed me his screen to get some help in this particular system. But he, I got a glance of his email inbox. Then I say, oh, I see you have a lot of email. So that's one, that's becoming a course. And also, whenever people reply, when I reach out over email, for instance, asking for this and this to be done, and they say, oh, we'll do it, we just have a lot of things to do right now, and we're a bit stressed up. And, oh, stressed, you say? I have this course. And also, there was this guy who sent out an email that KGL is closed. And I asked, what's KGL? And it's the warehouse for recycling of components, Komponentienwindingslager. I had never heard of that. But quite as a coincidence, I saw he had in his email signature a quote by Stephen Covey from the book The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. I started asking questions about that. I see, oh, are you into productivity? And that became a course.
Morten: So I kind of grabbed opportunities when they show up.
C: Yeah. And they do. And also, when they send me their evaluations of the course, one of the questions is, would you recommend this to a colleague? And all of those who are saying yes to that are follow-ups.
Morten: Okay. That is a very good one because we know for a fact that when people go in-house, it has to either grow organically, which is happening as well. So it grows from when people go to a course and they are happy and start talking about it because it helps them. And the second is that you must have some venue or channel to market this, or as you do very well, I think, because I've never heard about anyone being so successful by the, you know, you grab the opportunities that shows up saying, hey, you have this, maybe you're interested in GTD. So that's really good. So thank you for that. I'm sure people will be inspired. So So, and you said a little bit about this, but could you elaborate a little bit about how becoming an in-house GTD trainer has influenced your second-in-command position? Except I'm sure that you are more productive now in the sense that you do more of the right things, you just don't do more things. But how has it affected your role? Has it at all affected your role?
C: Maybe not the fact that I'm an instructor, but more the fact that I'm a practitioner, I will say. But I used to say that the fact that I can do this on the side of my job is proof that the methodology works. I have freed up the time and the energy to do this. That makes sense. Yeah, without it becoming a burden. So that's one of my selling points. You know, I usually say that I don't make any more money of this. This is just something I do in addition to everything else. So it's not economically motivated. That's not a motivation for me. My motivation is to spread the word because I have had so much success and and benefits from it. So I want to share it with the world. And also, I think, uh, by sharing it with colleagues, I will also get benefits from that because then, yeah, because I exactly don't get more work and, you know, everything flies better. So, um, does that answer your question?
Morten: Oh, that answer is beautifully. Thank you. Um, moving on to the next question. Um, What do you think are the most important skills from D2D that employees from the armed forces can benefit from? What is the easiest pick for them? What skills can help?
C: Yeah, of course, getting control over email. That's a classic. In our world, we have at least two email systems. We have the regular internet one, And then we have the internal one, which is graded on a lower level. And then some departments have even more highly graded stuff that I never see because I'm just in the music. So we're on the lower level. But that means they have a lot of inboxes to keep under control. Also, we have inboxes in other systems as well, which is not email, but tasks, so to speak. So there's a, there's a high demand to, to get an overview and control of that. So, and also because of security measures, things are not very well integrated in the, in, in the world outside, so to speak. You can, you can kind of use integrations with services and applications and stuff. We don't get to do that, which means we to approach this in a more manual way. And I believe that it's a good thing that I work inside of this company because I can feel their pain. I know what they're going through. And I have also found some solutions and workarounds which I can share. So that's going outside of the curriculum in the course. It's more that I can give practical examples on how I do this, how you could try to do this. So, and I think that's a good thing because an instructor coming from the outside, they can easily think that you don't know what I'm going through, you know.
Morten: Yeah.
C: So I think that's a very good thing. And You know what David Allen says, relaxed, focused control. That's the ultimate goal. So that's something to strive for. But getting control over your inbox, your calendar, and all those mundane things, that's the first and foremost takeaway, I think.
Morten: Yeah. I'm thinking, I want to paraphrase David Allen now because he, and paraphrasing, putting it into the armed forces perspective, is that if an enemy invades your country, it's It's good that you don't have 4,000 emails unanswered in your brain. You need to be there, you need to be making good decisions. Just a little another anecdote, because I've done some training for the armed forces as an outsider, and I remember it was in a high-security place. I did a course where I was not prepared for doing that, but kind of showed up. I can't have a computer. You can have, you can have a USB stick with your presentation on, but it has to be handed down at least 24 hours before so we can examine it. And that put things into perspective for me because I understand that the people who are in that situation, they need to, to be creating a system without one system at work, at least one, and then another for their personal life. And that's, you know, but not best practices, but sometimes life and the universe and work and security comes in way of what we call the best practices. So thank you.
C: Yeah. And I also see that I have to use some shorthand and kind of, I have to camouflage some of the things I write in my to-do system, which is outside of the armed forces, so that it's not traceable. And I also, just to add on to what you said, I have been in meetings where I'm not even allowed to bring my car key.
Morten: Yeah, because it has a receiver and yes.
C: So that's where I work in.
Morten: Yeah. I'm sure that, you know, like an Apple Watch would also go in the same category. Smart ring would go in the same category. Anything that has a communication with something else. Yes.
C: Yeah. That's quite, that's the things you kind of can think of upfront, but the car key, I didn't see that coming.
Morten: No, no, but it has a sender and it has a receiver. So I'm sure that's why. Because somebody can slip something inside that and take over. So, okay. Just looking at this as more like a high-level question. Because the world is a dangerous place now. It has been for some time, more dangerous than it has ever been. And I'm sure that many of our listeners share the uneasiness about how the world is. And we worry about things we didn't worry about a couple of years ago. Security, when it is a possibility that some nation, I'm not going to mention names, but could invade us and do bad stuff. And they could, not something you want to think about, but that is a reality now. And so if you are let's make you the head of the armed forces, like the president of the Norwegian army. That, of course, is nothing, but you are the one who is able to do what you want. And I'm sure that GTD would probably be part of that, but on some sort. You will probably not be the trainer then, but have an army of trainers. And if you had this army of trainers within the army, What do you think would happen to the defence capabilities of any army in the world who did that?
C: Yeah, we have this saying, which is also used in other circumstances. We say, fight as you train, train as you fight. That's an old saying, right? I think that's very much true. It's just as David Allen says, that the only The people who don't fight fire in crisis are the fire departments, right? So I think that what people are supposed to do when we hit the big red button, that's already taken care of to a very high extent. So I think that the goal here or the, yeah, The benefit is what lies ahead of that. And to say, kind of silly, when the alarm goes on, goes off, you don't want people to be concerned about calling Fred about the tires, right? Or buying cat food. So I think that the mission or the benefit from something like GTD lies in whatever's ahead of the big red button being pushed, so to speak. Yeah. And then, and you, you touched upon it earlier that you need to have your ducks in a row and control an overview in order to be ready for surprise, which is also something we say in the course, right?
Morten: Yeah.
C: Relax. Yeah.
Morten: And I'm, I think I've expressed this before, but I'm very grateful that we have you there because every person who is touched by Getting Things Done is a little more clear-headed and can make a little bit decision. And that, I think, is what we need now, better decisions made on the facts and not because of stress. So, and so, okay, I want to move on to go a little bit more personal again. Could you elaborate a little about what are the greatest personal benefits that you have gained using GTD and in both your professionally, you've touched upon that, but in your private sphere as well, have you, what is the benefits that you reap from practicing GTD?
C: Well, the most obvious one will have to be the, I talked about earlier that I had many longer periods of sick leave due to stress-related problems. That was in a 10-year period from 2009 to 2019. And from '19, May '19 was the last sick leave I had, and after that I have not had had one day, and that's mostly thanks to GTD.
Morten: So that's a healthy immune system, I would guess.
C: Yes, yeah, sure, sure. Of course, you get better sleep, you get better everything. So it all adds up, I think. So that's the most obvious one. Also, people have said that I'm less grumpy. You become more tolerant and harmonic as a I think, I don't think I was particularly angry or something, but, you know, that's one way stress comes to the surface, you know.
Morten: It is.
C: Yeah. And the feeling inside, of course, that's priceless. The feeling of having lower shoulders, you know what happens, you're ready for the things you didn't see coming. Yeah, all of that, that's nice, both professionally and personally.
Morten: Our colleagues in the UK have done two surveys among their clients, and they found that between— this is on top of my head, but it's between 70% and 80%, I think it's 71% and 82% of people are happier after implementing GTD. And I think so too, because you are less worried, you have less stress, you feel more in control of your life, you have less bad conscience for the things you are not doing because you can't remember what you've committed to, because you remember what you're committed to, and so on. So, yeah. And I don't know if your last question is, you partially answered it, but I will ask it anyway if you want to elaborate something. But you've, you've already touched upon this, but has GTD affected your mental health and the ability to handle stress in a demanding job as second in command?
C: I'm not sure what to say to that because I believe that I've had some inner calm all the way prior to GTD. Someone I know used to call me Serene René because apparently I seem to be this calm kind of guy. But anyway, stress is a fact no matter what. Even if you can't see it, you can be stressed, right? So I certainly believe that And getting more control, overview, relaxed focus has made it possible for me to look further into the future, not being a firefighter, because that's been part of my reality for a long period of time. So one thing I do just because I can is that the weekly review, which is cornerstone habit, keystone habits, I do that every week, of course. That's supposed to give you the feeling of the last week before vacation. That's what David says, right? You can have it on a weekly basis instead of a yearly basis. So what I do on the last day before every vacation I take, long or short, is I always end my day earlier just because I can. That's my habit. So I proudly say all my inboxes are empty. Happy holiday. Yeah, so most certainly I have better overview. I know what I need to do, I know what can't wait, I need— I know what I don't need to do and what can be delegated. It's the whole package. It's just a better way of living.
Morten: It is. And that is a very good note to end this interview, I think. Thank you so much for your time, Rene. If people want to get in touch with you, how can How can they do that?
C: Well, one way is that I'm a fairly active member of the GTD Connect forum over at the David Allen Company, so I can be reached there. Also, I have a LinkedIn profile, which I visit from time to time. Those are probably the most obvious points of contact. And you don't have to be a paying member to find me on GTD Connect because there's also this public part of it. Go in there.
Lars: Okay.
C: Yeah.
Morten: But if they search for Rene Li, they will find you.
C: Yeah.
Lars: Okay.
Morten: What I'm going to do is I'm going to make a note, or I'm making a note while I'm talking, is to, for people to get in touch with you, we will link in the show notes to your GDD Connect profile and your LinkedIn profile so people can say hi and And if they have any questions to becoming an in-house trainer, maybe I'm sure a lot of, I know that there are a lot of people, I did too before I was a little too fast for you, maybe I beat you to it, but back in 2006, I started learning Getting Things Done and one of the first things I realized that, oh, this is gold. Why isn't anyone teaching this?. And this should be part of the school system. But if it's not part of school system, at least there should be some courses you could take. And that led me to the path of stalking David Allen for a couple of years before— I'm not stalking, but I followed him around. When he came to Europe, I came to see him. I asked to talk to him. And that led to becoming a trainer, becoming a master trainer, becoming the franchisee for the Nordic region after a.
Lars: While.
Morten: As well. But, and I know when you get to getting things done, the second thing you want is to give it to someone else because you understand what it's done for you. So I fully, fully understand where you're coming from, René. So thank you for being a trainer. Thank you for making the Armed Forces of Norway a more productive and stress-free place for the people that you touch. I wish you good luck in the future, and I hope that you get a lot of new course participants in the future so that the Norwegian Armed Forces will be even stronger if we are ever needing to defend ourselves. So, yes, thank you and take care. Bye-bye. So, Lars, what did you think?
Lars: Well, you know, it's, it's so interesting to hear about René's journey with with the GTD and with becoming a GTD trainer. It's always fun to hear those kinds of journeys. What about you?
Morten: No. Well, I do like he talked about this, the personal journey that he has had as well as a personal GTDer, becoming better at it and the mental health benefits that he feels it has given him. What's not to like?
Lars: Thank you, René. Fantastic. Yeah, thanks, René.
Morten: Yeah. Will you take us out, Loris?
Lars: Absolutely. So the first thing we typically mention is the GCD Summer Camp. And as of this recording, we are still— it's still a work in progress to finalize the venue and the program. But as always, we point you to gcdsummercamp.com. When this recording is released, we might have a bit more information out there. So be sure to check in on that address. We hope to see you there. We know already it will be the weekend in Denmark in June, but more information to, to come. So be sure to check out gtdsommercamp.com. The other reminder that we always give you is to head on over to vitallearning.eu because that is where you'll find more information about the different seminars that we teach in GTD and other courses across the Nordics Plus. So you can find your way to the different country websites. Vitallearning.eu, go and have a look. And if you're outside the Nordics Plus, then head on over to cruciallearning.com to find your local partners.
Morten: And if you are wanting to receive coaching, you can reach out to, to us in Vital Learning in the Nordic Plus region. And if you want to have coaching in the US and Canada, go to gtdfocus.com. And if you want to learn more about Getting Things Done itself, so gettingthingsdone.com. And until next time, everybody, stay safe and stay productive. Bye-bye! You know, when he— and I will do a little clap because this is not going anywhere. Now we have a blooper.
