Episode 110 of the Getting Things Done® podcast. Listen above, or read the full transcript below.
Transcript
Automatically transcribed and lightly edited. Timestamps omitted for readability.
Morten: Hi, and welcome to another episode of the Getting Things Done podcast from Vital Learning. I am Morten Røvik, and I am here as always with my good friend and colleague Lars Rothschild Henriksen. Prævit, Lars. Prævit, Morten.
Lars: Good to see you as always, and it's always good to be with our listeners and viewers out there. We always start off with a quick reminder of the purpose of this podcast, which is to help you learn GTD or become even better GTDers. We hope that today's episode supports you in that, although perhaps slightly different than we normally do. If you're new to GTD, we always recommend you go back and listen to episodes 1 through 6 to get an introduction to the basics of GTD, the 5 steps. Today's episode number is number 110, and today's episode is about other vital skills.
Morten: Yes, as listeners to the podcast knows that we are focusing on getting things done, but that's not the only skill that we teach people here. And so we have 4 other skills, and we are going to enlighten you with 2 other skills that we thought you might be interested in as a GTDer. There is probably more, but let's start with 2 and see how it progresses and how you receive this, this episode. The 2 skills that we've been looking at for as a presentation today is— they are crucial conversations for mastering dialogue, long and lengthy name and Crucial Influence. And the first one is about communication and the second is about leadership. So, Lawrence, you have— we have divided this, so we will be the— you have certified— you are certified as a Crucial Conversation Mastering Dialogue trainer, and I'm trainer certified for Crucial Influence., as well as, mastering dialogue. So, so what would you say is the, the, the common denominator, Lars, of these two.
Lars: Skills? So you're referring to Crucial Conversations, mastering dialogue, how it intersects with GTD? Um, because that would be my sort of starting point, I guess, for, for GTDers out there in, in how, so how would this be of interest to me? Um, because that is where we, where we started as well. And how does this intersect? And it's been on my radar for quite a while and I've been curious about it as I initially came across Crucial Conversations. Let's refer to it as Crucial Conversations throughout this conversation, although we specifically mean for Mastering Dialogue. I'll perhaps briefly refer to the sister, which is Crucial Conversations for Accountability. But let's call it Crucial Conversations for the purpose of this episode. No, it's been an interesting topic for me to just watch out for. So how would this then help me as a GTDer, or where does this show up in my my world with wearing my GTD glasses. And it's quite clear really, because so what happens to good GTDers sometimes is that you'll see things get stuck on your next actions list. And there'll be varying reasons for that. We've spoken about this for the past 5 years almost in this podcast. There'll be different reasons, the wrong next action, things might have changed. You don't want to do it after all. It should be on your someday, maybe list. It should be delegated, whatever the reason might be.. But one category that was more visible to me, let's say, was these things on your agenda list that just kind of got stuck there, or things on your calls list that just got stuck there. And the reason they got stuck was that you didn't really want to go into this conversation. There was some topic you needed to talk to someone about, but for whatever reason, typically, like, you know, you're going into a conversation where you will likely lose control. You're uncertain about the other person's reaction, and that is when they kind of get stuck.
Morten: And that is kind of like an emotional procrastination regarding taking that. Yeah. I can relate to that. There are some conversations you don't want to take because you know it's going, going to become uncomfortable.
Lars: Yeah. Yeah. And we see this in the seminars. I delivered a seminar on this last week as, as of this recording. And this was the exact reaction of a GTD or a GTD trainer actually in the in the seminar that, yeah, now I see how much space this actually took up, even though, you know, he's a great GCDEer. But still, that sort of uncertainty and that sort of icky feeling. I don't know if that's the right word to describe it. But, you know, there's just, you know, like you said, an emotional reaction to this that you just are not sure I want to go into this. And, you know, what is helpful there is to have tools to then work your way through it. And that's exactly what Crucial Conversations is.
Morten: All about. And one of the things that I've been thinking in this kind of related to GTD is that when you get your ducks in a row and you act together and you're getting things done, it starts working for you. You start maybe being more, let's say, aware of people who do not have GTD in your world. And that is people in your reality sphere where people are not delivering on their deliverables. Not only, but, and, you know, it could be in a meeting, or it could be a call. It could be your spouse, for that matter, who promises things and don't deliver. And how do you handle those conversations? That's what Crucial Conversations is all about, isn't it? Exactly. So we've been talking about that we would talk around some of the slides in the slide deck that we have when we give the courses, just to make it visual for those who are on YouTube. But we will try and explain this as well when it comes to those who are only in audio. But this might be an episode that you want to at least see key elements in when we do, you know, that there is two slides that we are going to focus on for crucial conversation. The second one is a little difficult to explain thoroughly, but let's try. So, Lars, what makes a conversation crucial?
Lars: Thank you for that setup, Morten. Just to build on what you just said, I think people on audio will be fine for the most part, but like you said, it could be helpful just dive in and just watch a few seconds to know the model if that is helpful. Now, I think the starting point for Crucial Conversations is this description where you have these 3 elements that sort of constitute a Crucial Conversation. There's high stakes involved, there are opposing opinions, and we have strong emotions. And it's where these strong emotions tend to take over, that's when, you know, in these conversations when we need to act our best, and it's often when we act our worst. And that's simply biological response, right? This is a fight or flight moment where people show up to us with Crucial Conversations, or we just find ourselves in these conversations. You know, you started a conversation that suddenly became crucial halfway through, right? Um, so this is, this is the starting point. Um, but I do want to highlight one thing that at least differs for me, because when I came across this, I initially thought, well, I, I don't have very many you know, conversations that just erupt into people yelling and screaming and shouting. And that's not really what the case is. So we'll get back to that when we talk about the model as well afterwards. But there's these sort of two extremes with silence or verbal violence, meaning that people either try to dominate— or it could be yelling, but at least in some way dominate the conversation and try to impose their opinions, their views on you. But I would more highlight the silence part, at least for the people in Denmark that we've worked with so far. And I think perhaps the culture overall is more leaning towards that silence part, meaning that we have either you're in a conversation where you then withdraw and hold back and don't engage in that conversation, don't provide your input into the pool of shared meaning that we work with in Crucial Conversations. That could be one part or the other party, the person that you're having this dialogue with is not providing their meaning into the pool of shared meaning. So just to put that on people's radar that they— because that was my initial reaction, that I'll certainly— this will be helpful for me, but I'm not sure how frequently this will actually show up. And it's absolutely way more frequent than I would have thought. Not that you need the whole model and you need the whole package to work through every conversation, but it does show up more frequently than I would have otherwise estimated before I came across it. So that's the one asterisk to add to this. The other one to add is a sort of a testimony from a trainer that we certified last year within Crucial Conversations who said that she uses this on a daily basis with her teenage daughter because everything seems to be sort of a, you know, even small talk seems to be, can be misinterpreted to be an attack, you know, in everyday life. So just bits and pieces of it will actually be really helpful. And I have to, you know, really agree with that. The more I work with it, the more I see value in this model and just taking pieces and using it in daily life has actually made day-to-day conversations easier.
Morten: It has. And it's not often that you have these conversations, at least not at my age. It feels like most of them have been already taken. And I wish I had this skill before. I can vividly remember a few moments of my life where this would have been really helpful, where instead of going into silence and retreating, I could at least have the guts to try and address these conversations more— what would you call that— pragmatically. So instead of getting emotional or angry, take a step back and move into those. So opposing opinions, somebody is not agreeing with you, there is strong emotions and people are angry or, you know, sad or just a lot of emotions. And then there is a lot, it's a high stake, there's a lot of things that can go wrong here. And when, if they go wrong, they can be really wrong. So those conversations are We meet them all the time in our lives, you know, in your work and personal life. And how to handle those, that's what this methodology is all about. How can you handle those so that not you win the conversation, but that it gets the best outcome this conversation can get. And people will look at this, but I remember when I saw this first time, is that, you know, when you think about, you know, my blood pressure, I'm sure if you measured that, goes up because I'm thinking back at the conversation that went wrong. And then, And imagine hearing that this is a skill you can learn. And so I think, yeah, fat luck. This is not— you can't teach people this, but yes, you can. So anything else you want to say on this slide, John, before we— No.
Lars: I think that's what I wanted to cover, just to make sure that people— just to make sure that you don't misunderstand that this got to be for the hostage negotiator or someone or the top CEO of the biggest company in your country. This really is like GTD. It really is for everyone.
Morten: Yeah, it is. And it is also for the hostage negotiators. I'm sure they can learn something about this. Okay. So jumping to the model.
Lars: Exactly. Yeah. So just to give you an idea of more of the details of what we actually go through. And there are different sort of parts of the, of the, of the, so this is the, how we walk through it in the seminar. But those of you who have read the book or will read the book, you'll also recognize these from the chapter headings that we have in the, in the book. But there are some things that we do initially before we enter the conversation. Then there are ways to open the conversation. Then there is a way to manage the psychological safety throughout the conversation. And then there are some recommendations for how we then move to action at the especially the last part will be very familiar to GTDers out there. But if we start at the top, so what do we do before we actually engage in this crucial conversation? And the first thing to talk about is what we call get unstuck, which is that you tend to find when you find yourself stuck, there is a conversation that you're not having or not holding very well. And the first step is to just identify what are we actually going to talk about? There is something that has shown up in your life and how are you going to address this? Is this going to be about a Is it a specific content, a specific occurrence of something? Is there a pattern that we need to, to, to talk about, or is this perhaps a relationship issue here? So you'll notice that that spells out CPR and that's, that's part of what we start to talk about finding out what, what this conversation will actually be about. Then the second step before again, we enter the conversation is to master my stories. This is one of the favorite parts for me in the, in the seminar, because this really highlights how many stories we tell ourselves. First of all, to identify what those stories are. And it's a lot of fun in the seminar. There are some great exercises in there as well. And really trying to find out, so what is actually facts and what are stories? And then you start to notice how many stories you actually, you know, you make up on your own, just oftentimes without knowing, at least that was my own experience that there are so many stories that tend to show up and I'll tend to treat them as facts if I don't really you know, stop and think, okay, so what did I actually see? And what am I actually telling myself? How am I interpreting those facts to, to turn it into a story? So it's a lot of fun to become more aware of. I actually brought my wife on one of the seminars. And we had a lot of fun with this, especially at home afterwards. So just, you know, talking day-to-day occurrences. Is that a story? Or is that, you know, fact, what.
Morten: Actually happened and trying to spot those. And this is one of the keys that I think is for becoming better, for mastering these skills, is that you have to master your stories. You have to understand that you actually are telling stories about someone. So I don't know if we should try and make this a little, what we call, more viable or more alive for people. So let's say that you have one colleague at work. Colleague who never refills the coffee machine. It's a communal task. Everybody, when you take the last cup of coffee, you should always make coffee, a new pot of coffee. But this colleague never does that. And what kind of stories are you telling yourself about.
Lars: This person? And we try to spot these 3 clever stories. That's also part of the Mastering My Stories part. First of all, that we are looking to change those stories Because the stories then change our emotions and that means that we will enter the conversations completely differently. 3 types of stories to keep an eye out for, and people can play with this as well at home or at work. The victim, villain, or helpless stories, how they show up. Meaning that there's a victim, it's always, you know, it occurred to me, there's nothing I can do about it. Or the villain story, it's all about them. You know, they're evil, they're mean, they never fill up the coffee machine. Or helpless, there's nothing I can do. You know, that's the bureaucracy here, or that's just how things are, there's nothing I can do to change those things. And it's just so interesting and kind of fun actually to change this into a task for you to analyze and see how can I actually change these stories? What would a reasonable, why would a reasonable, rational, decent human being actually do that? Simply asking that question will actually often reveal, okay, there might be a better explanation than what my initial gut reaction might might be in that story.
Morten: What story would you tell yourself about someone who's frequently late to meetings? I'm just pushing that out there because that is a real one. If people are late, why? And you are telling yourself stories about them and they're often not.
Lars: Very good. Yeah. And not to dive into the crucial influence part as well, but talking about the 6 sources of influence that I know you'll, you'll get to. And that part is also, you know, we'll tend to, to, to focus on, on personal motivation and just thinking that people are lazy. You know, that's the easy, easy explanation inside our heads. But, you know, things are frequently not like that.
Morten: They don't have a good character. You know, they're bad people.
Lars: Yeah.
Morten: I'm sure as well from the He's the one who always eats all the chocolate in the meeting room.
Lars: No, but I hear those villain stories all the time now, especially as we deliver more and more of these seminars, those villain stories, and they really stick not only on a personal level, but on a department level as well. That department, they always do this, they always do that. They steal our resources and they're never on time.. And it's, yeah, it's, it's, it, those stories, you know, the stories might be correct, but we have to challenge them to make sure that they can actually be, be proven and be, be accurate.
Morten: Yep. So, so if you've mastered your stories, you've figured out what is the fact and what is your story about the.
Lars: Fact, where do we go from there? Yeah. So then we can, can start to then open up the conversation. And, and just to take a step back, you know, the whole goal of this is always to fill this pool of shared meaning that we have at the center. Of the model, meaning that we provide our input and we get their meaning into the pool of shared meaning as well. And the way we open up is really, first of all, to establish the psychological safety. And we do that with what we call Start with Heart, which is to identify the good intent that you're actually going into the conversation with and actually opening up and sharing that good intent. So sharing why you're actually having this conversation. I want to make sure that this team works great. I want to be sure that our relationship is an open one where we can talk about things. I want to, you know, that you really go in there and say this out loud. There are some things that— yeah, go ahead.
Morten: No, I just want to say I want our relationship as working partners in this company to continue, and I just want you to understand that I'm telling this out of— from that perspective, that I want our relationship to continue and be good in the future as well.
Lars: Yeah. So really making sure that people feel safe as you start to open up to engage in this conversation. Exactly. Then we have State My Path, which is where we then go in and share. So how do we, you know, how do we open up this conversation? And the starting point here is what we call Fact Story Ask, meaning that you share the facts that are the basis for why you are open up this conversation. Then you share the story. That are based on the facts that you have shared. So why is this a concern for you? For example, that person that keeps showing up late to meetings, you know, the last 4 times we've had the meeting, she showed up 5, 10, 20 minutes late. I'm starting to wonder whether, you know, X, Y, and Z, your story. And then ask and really having an open question. So how do you see it? Can you share your perspective? Really making sure that that is an open question. And these are details, but they are very important details. And we talk about this in the seminar that people will tend to be sort of, you know, how can we avoid this becoming a problem? Or how can we avoid this from happening again? And, you know, too soon actually being too direct with the questions instead of opening up because you don't have the full picture. You have to understand that when you enter this conversation, you might be missing, you know, significant portion of the facts that you didn't see or couldn't know about. So having that really open question after establishing the safety and And, you know, sharing your perspective is, is just critical to actually inviting people and, and inviting.
Morten: Their meaning into the pool of shared meaning. Yeah. The alternative would be not to start with your heart and then instead, instead of state, you know, state, start with heart and state my path, you will just tell your story.
Lars: You're always late. Yeah. And again, we tend to treat that as fact and we tend to just, you know, not see any flaws and we tend to make those stories. You know, we cherry-pick the facts that support the stories that we tell and conveniently leaving out different facts that would explain why someone else might have a.
Morten: Completely different story. So, okay.
Lars: So what's next? Then we can make it safe. So there will be times, you know, there are, these conversations don't go in a straight line and there will be times when these things deviate, these conversations deviate from the path that we thought they might take. And there'll be different tools in the toolbox to make sure that we keep this psychological safety. Because one of the promises from Crucial Conversations in one of the modules is that we can talk to almost anyone about almost anything. That is sort of the starting point. It really all comes back to this psychological safety. So to make it safe, one of the tools in the toolbox can be having a contrasting statement, meaning that we will share something, someone will misunderstand or misinterpret interpret what we said, and then having a contrast statement to correct that wrong assumption, meaning that my intention was not to imply that you have lazy people in your team. My intention was to— and then explain your reason why. So that might be one of the tools in the toolbox. And that is also what you find on the right-hand side of the model, which is to, you know, have some different tools to make sure that we are on the right track, that we are still getting their meaning into the into the pool of shared meaning.
Morten: Can I ask a question, Lars, just for the listeners and viewers? Is that how can you understand if people don't feel.
Lars: Safe, you know, in this model? That leads to the next model, which is how do you notice then signs that people are leaving dialogue? So the learn to look part is, and then other models as well, we talk a bit about this, is to notice those signs that people are then leaving the dialogue. And that's when the silence and verbal violence, the red circle in the model, come into play. So that is where you will find how people are starting to withhold their opinions. So they will be moving to silence. They don't share it or they'll be wrapping their meaning into, you know, some people might say, or sarcasm or humor, trying to escape conversations, things like that. Or the verbal violence part where they use absolute or the absolutes, or they exaggerate numbers or they dominate the conversations. Or like I said, it could be yelling. That's kind of what the people might interpret from the label verbal violence. But there are so many nuances of this. And that is the point. Notice that in conversations and also learn to know how your own style under stress might be. That is something that we should add to the show notes as well. It's a test that you can actually also take online to understand more on how you would typically react. How would you fail? Situation with the person. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's, it's actually very, very helpful to, to spot this. Lastly, the seek mutual purpose and explore other paths. And this is where we then investigate. So how can we find solutions, find common ground when it doesn't really seem to be possible? So there'll be different approaches to that. You can look for mutual purposes, you can try to combine them, you can If nothing else, you can find compromises, but really trying to stay in dialogue for as long as possible and really trying to work your way to understanding the other person's purpose, sharing yours, and see if you can find any common ground in that. So, there are some really great tools and tips and tricks— that became one word— in the toolbox part that I like to call it under the their meaning headline. Lastly, at the end, move to action. So this is where we'll be on very common ground for GCDers. So it's great if we can leave that dialogue in agreement, but we actually want to also make sure that we have a plan to follow up. So that is really much of what the move to action part is all about. And again, GCDers will be, you know, very familiar with these kinds of steps. So how do we actually follow up with people? How do we, you know, say in the next meeting, let's check in and see how things go. Are we moving in the right direction? That kind of who does what, by when, and how do we follow up. That is what we try to make sure that people have as, you know, an area of focus as well when we wrap.
Morten: Up these dialogues. And I do believe that as GTD is based on logics and, you know, the common sense And this is also based on common sense that the more I understand about this model, the more I practice it, the more I understand it really works. And I can also see that it really works when I've applied it in my own life. And I think that is so important. And one of the main reasons why we decided to partner with Crucial Learning, who are the Crucial Conversations for Mastering Dialogue and all the other vital skills that we are taking to our region. They're the supplier of this, and it's because it is logic. It's like, you understand this, like, it's like 1 1 2. Of course it is 2. And if you take this part and this part, put it together, it's going to work. You understand that by your, you know, the logical part of you. And I really like that. And, you know, I'm a very commonsensical kind of guy. If it's not common sense, don't talk to me about it. If it's fluffy, don't talk to me about it. But this actually works. And it is, I wish, as I wanted GTD to be, you know, one of the reasons that I back in the day, wanted to take GGT to the Nordic region is because it is common sense. I wanted it to be in the school system. I still dream about this. And hopefully one day it will be. But also this should be on any parent's radar when you are getting, you know, if you are in a, if you work anywhere really, or if you hold a job or you have a spouse or, you know, a partner in your life, you should have this in your belt. It's like we should have this as part of growing up. When you're becoming an adult, you should understand this and practice this. The world will look so much better.
Lars: If it did this. Yeah, both from a personal satisfaction perspective and also, you know, from a company perspective, why do companies actually go in and buy this as a seminar? And when you see the math behind some of how much these Crucial Conversations cost, then you start to notice how, how big of an impact it really can be. If I remember correctly, one of the stats that are shown, we had this pre-seminar video that runs with some different questions to reflect on and also some stats. And I believe it's, you know, for every Crucial Conversation not had, it's, I think, $1,500 and one working day lost. So it pretty quickly adds up with the different conversations that might show up. And yeah, it really, it makes sense from a financial perspective. And in the end, I think, you know, as trainers, this is so, it's It's really valuable to see people when they leave the seminar and hopefully feeling ready to have that first crucial conversation because that is how the seminar is built. They show up, they identify a crucial conversation in their life, and then we run through the model working on that specific topic. And there's a lot of time to work with that conversation. And it's just, you know, I've spotted some people now that where you can sort of clearly see that this is going to change their life going forward. Forward, that they can really walk out and they will have that conversation and that will then change their relationship for the better, hopefully for a very long time, perhaps the rest of their life. So it really is sort of a, it's a very valuable seminar as a trainer as well. A lot of fun to deliver and some really skilled, some skills that can.
Morten: Really truly help people going forward. Yes, indeed. And for reflection for our viewers and listeners, What crucial conversations have not been held in your family or at your workplace? Just try and write those down and try and estimate how much time is wasted with this. I'm not saying that that's, but that's the math that makes the Crucial Conversation.
Lars: Courses well worth the investment. Yeah, and if the seminar is not an option, the books are really good. They're really well written. They're easy to read. Run through it. Obviously, I think it's somewhat similar to the GTD book in the sense that seeing the skills applied and discussing them and getting more of a clear picture of what is, what is, what does it actually mean, what does it actually look like, that's, that's part of where the value of the seminars come in. But, you know, have them. If nothing else, go read the book. Book, for sure.
Morten: It will certainly help, no doubt. Yeah. And I know that reading the book or listening to it, because it's available as audiobooks as well in English. And that's a good option. They also, I know that Crucial Learning has or is in the, if they are not, they will be at the When this episode airs, they have finished their project where they will take you through a mini course of Crucial Conversations for mastering dialogue in English. And you just have to sign up with your email, and then you are sent emails with video training and, and some work you can do on your own, and that's going to help you moving and understanding the Crucial Conversations model and how it actually is working. So go to cruciallearning.com and look for free mini-series course. And the same is actually available in English as well for GTD. In Crucial Learning and also at whiterlearning.no in Norwegian for getting things done. You can find the same there. So if you want to visit us, if you're a Norwegian-speaking listener or viewer. Okay, anything you want to add to Crucial Conversations?
Lars: I think we, I think we covered all the stuff that I wanted, how it intersects, what it's, what it's all about, and Yeah, but that people feel ready to have that.
Morten: Conversation as they leave. Good. And now we are shifting gears to the second vital skill that we would like to present today, and that is the Crucial Influence and the Crucial Influence model as shown on screen here. This model is showing the relationship between the 6 sources of influence that we are going to go into more details about, and then the vital behaviors that is then driving the results that you get. And how this is working in, you know, the way that you would use this model in your everyday life is that you will start looking at what results do we want, and looking at at in your department or in your family or in your company, what results are you not getting that you need? And it could be anything from increased revenue to better customer service to just about any result you would like to have that you're not having now. And then you look at this, this, these results, and then you have to ask yourself what vital behaviors behaviors is necessary for us to reach our results. For instance, if you want to have a better customer service relationship to your client, give them a better customer service to drive the results that you want, you want to increase customer satisfaction, then you have to look at what behaviors are we not doing today. Trying to identify what do we need to do more of. And when you identify the behaviors, then you can move on to the Six Sources of Influence. Lars, you're not certified in this and you're not doing this, but you have anything.
Lars: To add at this stage? No, just that I'm familiar with it. The book is in progress at home. So I I was starting to read that, then I got the team book and I had to— I wanted to switch gears and read that. So I'm back to this. I have looked through it and I find it a very inspiring model. And as we also spoke about in the pre-show, I am a certified trainer in the Crucial Conversations for Accountability seminar, where we also use the 6 Sources of Influence. So I'm familiar with them, but from.
Morten: A slightly different perspective, I would Yeah. Okay. So, so just to recap what I just said is that you have results you would like to achieve and then you have to identify which vital behaviors will drive these results. And then you will look at the 6 different sources of influence that can drive those behaviors. And as they say in the book and in the course, and it is commonsensical, is that it's just math. The more of these 6 sources of influence you change, make changes to, then the higher likelihood of the change of the vital behaviors, which will then again impact results that you will.
Lars: Get.
Morten: So let's skip to the, to this. I'll just have to go back a little just for a couple of seconds and go to influence with 6 sources. And then jump to slide number 5. So this is a model that's, it's a 2×3 model, a matrix, and the slide on the side says increase, increase your influence. We learn strategies for using each source. When you realize how potent each source is, you'll become convinced of the danger of leaving any of them out of your plans. So the idea here is to have as many as you can. So starting on the top with number 1 and 2, it's the personal motivation and ability. So it is personal motivation— is I want to do something. And that's always, or often, connected to your values, personal values. And the second personal is ability. So that is can-do. Can I do this? So if I can do, then it is number 2 of the 6 sources of influence. If you continue down, then you have social motivation and ability. Social motivation could be praise or pressure. For instance, provide encouragement, help people socially get motivated. And then the social ability is what helps or what hinders the the people of doing the behaviors you would like them to behave. For instance, it could be some boss is not giving them the help they need, and maybe if they get the help they need, then they have the social ability to do something. And let's move to structural motivation and abilities. Structural motivation is rewards and punishment. So, so the, the rewards could be, well, we will have a cake every Friday if we can change this. Um, the punishment is, I, I feel that if I do this, um, my numbers will not be good. It could be that you have some overarching goal that you would like to achieve that is stopped because somebody has a KPI that's not in alignment with the structural motivation, and therefore they will not do it. So then you have to change the structure. Then we have structural ability, is that it's structural environments and tools. So for instance, if you have software that's not working well, that's hindering people of doing their job, then you have to change the environment that they work in by changing the tools. Either by changing, for instance, software, or changing how people use them, train people a little bit more about how they use them. So the idea here is that if you identify some behaviors you would like to change, then you have to identify which sources of influence can you use and what are the best ones. And then just try and change as many as you can at the same time to make sure that you have the math on your side. That will then give you the behavior that you need to drive the results that you need.
Lars: I don't know if that makes sense at all, Lars. Absolutely. And it's, you know, ever since I came across the model, I've been really fascinated with this matrix that you have motivation and ability at the top, and then you have personal, social, and structural on the left-hand side here. And just adding some more perspective to things because oftentimes, you know, you'll tend to focus on one and really invest heavily in that and you're, you're leaving out all the rest. And as you highlighted, you know, when you start to understand this, then you see the value in actually applying all 6 if you have the opportunity to do so. I don't remember where I saw the comparison, but there was a comparison of that you needed to move to move and you had hired 6 movers, but they showed up, you know, one at a time sequentially, right? So one came from 9 to 10, the next one came from 10 to 11. And obviously that would then make things hard to move, right? We need to apply more. We need to apply more of these. And that is exactly where the 6.
Morten: Sources of influence show up. And it could be so like, for instance, let's say just for an example here and trying to exemplify it, let's say that you are implementing a CRM system, but, and you thought that would help your customer relationship, but you understand that people aren't using the software. They're using their own tools. They are using pen and paper, or, you know, their own calendar system, or they use the, you know, Outlook, and they're not using the CRM system. But you do believe that that the results you need is going to be achieved through this software. And then walking through these 6 sources of influence and asking yourself, is this personal motivation? You know, if— do I want to use this? No, maybe I do not want to use this. And then the ability, can I use this personal ability. Maybe you can't, maybe you need some training in using this software, and then maybe motivation will also help. And maybe you will get a small reward when you finish the online course in using the CRM system so that you are now suddenly have number 2 and number 5. You have some structural rewards connected this. And if you then connect it to people's values, is that saying that, well, the CRM system helps us safeguard our, you know, our company, and that is helping you and your colleagues stay in work, then suddenly you connect it to their values. Okay, we are doing this CRM system because it's going to give me a better me and my colleagues better job security and jobs in the future. And then social motivation could come. You can provide people with praise or even pressure. Is that praise that we hope people will do? We'll do this and talk about it in public, in the meetings that you have. And then the social ability. Is there anything holding you back? Practical. I don't have time to take that course you wanted us to do, to do the CRM system. Okay, maybe I need to talk to all the managers and asking them, please emphasize this, that people have the right to learn this. It's important for us. Make sure that you are not stopping people from doing that. And lift them up instead of stopping them. And then the more of these 6, you know, sources of influence that you can change, the more likely is the success of your CRM implementation and the results that you want as a result of that.
Lars: Does that make sense to you, Lars? Yeah, yeah, no, it's a really good example. And again, exemplifies also why I think this is, you know, It's, it's, it's fun to do. We spoke about this at the recent seminar as well, that, you know, it changes with GTD or changes with Crucial Conversations for mastering dialogue or with Crucial Influence. It changes how you look at things and then change them into— at least my perspective would be that you change it to sort of an analytical task that, you know, all right, here's something to, to work on. And that, at least for me, that, that triggers me. That's This, this sounds fun. Let's, let's figure out what's happening. Mastering my stories. Hmm. Am I actually telling myself some stories here? Hmm. Or, you know, I find myself in this conversation, but something is not right. I need to take a step out and reestablish safety. So step out of the content, reestablish that safety, get it back into that content. So it becomes more of an analytical part of, or a task for yourself. And for me, that's, that's a lot.
Morten: Of fun, at least. Less emotional and more intellectual. Challenge. And we want that, you know, that the things that we cannot— when you feel that you are— a lot of the things that you meet that are challenges in life is getting emotional, because if you don't, it can become, if you don't know how to solve them, you know, find a solution for whatever challenges you have. And with getting things done, it's intellectual. It is, of course, emotional as well, but it is an intellectual exercise. To learn the 5 steps and understanding Horizon's focus model and just use the strategy that you've taught yourself or learned in a seminar or been coached in. And the same with Crucial Conversation and Crucial Influence as well. Exactly the same. So I'm fairly happy that we got around to this. I hope that we maybe we should revisit the last two that we have not visited yet, The Power of Habit and Crucial Conversations for Accountability, at a later stage, just to touch on them and tell people what they are so that they can decide if this is something for you. But I do believe that they tie together as— I'm not sure I like this word because it's a little new agey, but it's called a holistic approach to skills that may change your life. But there are some skills that you have to be taught or teach yourself, that like GTD is one of them. These we've been looking at today are two other skills that you might want to have. In your tools, tool belt.
Lars: Yeah.
Morten: So, yeah.
Lars: Anything to add or are we up to— No, I think we got this, we got this question actually from a listener or viewer at some point to talk a bit about these. And I hope this was helpful just to give you an overview of what this is and perhaps hopefully inspire some people to try this out. I would add to the crucial influence part is, you know, I played with these 6 6 Sources of Influence as part of a, you know, how could we get more traction with GTD in companies? So we've actually been playing a bit with this with the certified trainers that we have in Denmark. We don't have any conclusions yet, but we are working on this. So we combine the 6 Sources of Influence with the Natural Planning Model. We started on this, we'll continue on this as well in the next meeting that we have. I would add to that mix, you know, we hear from GCDers all the time that want to share GCD with others. And I think perhaps if you are in a leadership position, then, you know, taking these 6 sources of influence and trying to work with it, how might this look? How would that look on a personal motivation level? How could we apply that on a social ability level? Well, you know, set up, you know,, you know, using colleagues for sparring or what, what might it look like actually to, to improve the social ability. Taking that perspective is, um, is perhaps one way to really approach this and then add to that mix what you will get from reading the team book. Then I think we have a cocktail now that will just, you know, it'll be fantastic.
Morten: Yeah.
Lars: Nicole, all you want. Six Forces of Influence with the team, with the natural planning model and, you.
Morten: Know, everything will work out just the way you want, I'm sure. Maybe just to have a little olive in.
Lars: Your martini as well might help. Right. Well, a quick wrap-up on this episode, and the wrap-up always starts with a quick reminder of the GTD Summer Camp coming up. GTD Summer Camp 2024, June 15th to 16th in Denmark. Again, people from all over the world coming. So So much fun to see how many different countries are showing up this year. It's, it's really cool. We have, as of this recording, 10 seats left. So only 10 left. So again, if you thought about attending, be sure to move now while we still have some seats available. The program will be out, I think, next week. So you'll also have a clear picture of what we will be doing. GTD Summer Camp. Summercamp.com is the place to go to.
Morten: Learn more and perhaps sign up. 10 seats. You have to go there now if you want to go, and it is a lot of fun. I'm going to, to be leading one little session about Horizons of Focus. So if you want to, to meet Lars and me and hang out with all the other great GTDers, be there or be square. gtdsummercamp.com. And, um, yeah, you have more, haven't you?
Lars: I thought we'd never done this. I can leave that part for you as well. It is a reminder. You might have heard it before. If you have ever heard one of these episodes before, vitallearning.eu, um, that's a place to go learn more about GTD, Crucial Conversations, Crucial Influence, all of those good methodologies and more information about that in each of the country websites. Go to vitallearning.eu to learn more and to criticallearning.com to find your local partners.
Morten: If you're outside the Nordic space. And then until next time, as always.
Lars: Stay safe and stay productive.
Morten: Bye-bye.
Lars: Bye everyone.
